Trips when divers aren’t ready/equipped for them

[Marie13]

I've only dived wet to 47 degrees, I wouldn't know.

I’ve gone wet to 43. I was a wee bit chilly as I didn’t have my hooded vest (I wear 5mm hood over it) and neoprene socks in my boots. I always make sure I have them for colder water now and I’m just fine. I readily admit I’m crazy.

 

[MichaelMc]

Captain got back to me. Redundancy is not required, but is strongly encouraged

I think that answers for you. Redundancy is required, if that is your preference. The boat strongly encourages + you are uncomfortable with your divers not having -> redundancy required. I'd think up what minimums you want and publish to your prospects.

 

[Marie13]

I think that answers for you. Redundancy is required, if that is your preference. The boat strongly encourages + you are uncomfortable with your divers not having -> redundancy required. I'd think up what minimums you want and publish to your prospects.

I have no issues being the bad guy. I would definitely be preoccupied about the non-redundant divers.

Thanks!

 

[KenGordon]

Do you think you are protecting yourself by insisting on experience X or kit choice Y?

Suppose you exclude some people who don’t meet your requirements but allow some who do. Then one of those people has an accident. So were your requirements appropriate? “ marie13 said my husband/wife was good for this dive and now they are dead” etc...

By having an opinion on whether someone should not dive you are implicitly giving approval for those you don’t object to. Are you actually competent to make that decision? Is that a decision that you want to be making?

 

[Cert1967]

Do you think you are protecting yourself by insisting on experience X or kit choice Y?

Suppose you exclude some people who don’t meet your requirements but allow some who do. Then one of those people has an accident. So were your requirements appropriate? “ marie13 said my husband/wife was good for this dive and now they are dead” etc...

By having an opinion on whether someone should not dive you are implicitly giving approval for those you don’t object to. Are you actually competent to make that decision? Is that a decision that you want to be making?

****************

Oh Boy, it's a private trip that she is organizing.

Just like a private poker night, she may invite whomever she chooses. Your hypo is tortured, she isn't making a judgment on diving skill, only a minimum set of equipment. Just as you might invite only skiers who have beacons for a backcountry trip you might organize.

Way over the top on possible liability. Got any case law that shows otherwise?

That said if I were putting on a dive trip I would be sure my cap policy covered 'social trips'. I'll read my policy tonight.

And I would ask my friends to sign a liability waiver - just as they most surely will do so for the boat. Why not?

 

[Marie13]

Do you think you are protecting yourself by insisting on experience X or kit choice Y?

Suppose you exclude some people who don’t meet your requirements but allow some who do. Then one of those people has an accident. So were your requirements appropriate? “ marie13 said my husband/wife was good for this dive and now they are dead” etc...

By having an opinion on whether someone should not dive you are implicitly giving approval for those you don’t object to. Are you actually competent to make that decision? Is that a decision that you want to be making?

Well, let's see...someone who has experience to 130ft, has dived this area before, and dives doubles vs someone who has very little experience to only 85-90ft (very few dives outside their Deep Diver class), will only dive an AL80, and refuses a pony.

You tell me which one you'd prefer to have on the trip? The prepared one or the one who isn't and won't?

The attitudes I've encountered between vacation divers and those on the Great Lakes are vastly different. Some vacation divers I've talked to seem to think nothing of going as deep as they can on an AL80. "Why would I carry extra air with me? That's what the dive master is for." (I'm not joking. This conversation actually happened). Going deep inside a wreck is OK because the dive master says it's OK. It's different up here - you're responsible for yourself and your buddy. There's no DM to "save you." Frankly, I don't want to be diving with someone who has the mentality that an AL80 is just fine for a 130ft dive and thinks that redundancy isn't ever needed.

EDIT: If someone is really questionable, I'll just run their diving CV by the captain and get his opinion.

 

[scubadada]

Well, let's see...someone who has experience to 130ft, has dived this area before, and dives doubles vs someone who has very little experience to only 85-90ft (very few dives outside their Deep Diver class), will only dive an AL80, and refuses a pony.

You tell me which one you'd prefer to have on the trip? The prepared one or the one who isn't and won't?

The attitudes I've encountered between vacation divers and those on the Great Lakes are vastly different. Some vacation divers I've talked to seem to think nothing of going as deep as they can on an AL80. "Why would I carry extra air with me? That's what the dive master is for." (I'm not joking. This conversation actually happened). Going deep inside a wreck is OK because the dive master says it's OK. It's different up here - you're responsible for yourself and your buddy. There's no DM to "save you." Frankly, I don't want to be diving with someone who has the mentality that an AL80 is just fine for a 130ft dive and thinks that redundancy isn't ever needed.

EDIT: If someone is really questionable, I'll just run their diving CV by the captain and get his opinion.

So, sounds like you know how you will deal with this.

 

[Joneill]

Way over the top on possible liability. Got any case law that shows otherwise?

That said if I were putting on a dive trip I would be sure my cap policy covered 'social trips'. I'll read my policy tonight.

And I would ask my friends to sign a liability waiver - just as they most surely will do so for the boat. Why not?

So... not so over the top on liability then, is it? Why else would you bother with that stuff?

 

[The Chairman]

Oh Boy, it's a private trip that she is organizing.

You miss the point. As the organizer, once she goes past the captain for vetting the competency of the divers, she opens herself up to additional possible liabilities. You don't have to ever worry about the reasonable divers suing you: only their unreasonable survivors. Me? I don't take any money for our Invasions, Surges or Spree4Alls, and I let the people taking the money do all the vetting of who's qualified or not to dive.

 

[Joneill]

Well, let's see...someone who has experience to 130ft, has dived this area before, and dives doubles vs someone who has very little experience to only 85-90ft (very few dives outside their Deep Diver class), will only dive an AL80, and refuses a pony.

You tell me which one you'd prefer to have on the trip? The prepared one or the one who isn't and won't?

The attitudes I've encountered between vacation divers and those on the Great Lakes are vastly different. Some vacation divers I've talked to seem to think nothing of going as deep as they can on an AL80. "Why would I carry extra air with me? That's what the dive master is for." (I'm not joking. This conversation actually happened). Going deep inside a wreck is OK because the dive master says it's OK. It's different up here - you're responsible for yourself and your buddy. There's no DM to "save you." Frankly, I don't want to be diving with someone who has the mentality that an AL80 is just fine for a 130ft dive and thinks that redundancy isn't ever needed.

EDIT: If someone is really questionable, I'll just run their diving CV by the captain and get his opinion.

Not true of most warm water vacation divers I’ve encountered (myself included). We don’t all rely on DM’s and, in many cases, there are no DM’s. There is also nothing wrong with going to 130 ft on an AL80 if you are a responsible diver - your NDL will be an issue long before your AL80 (though I would not penetrate a wreck at 130 ft on an AL80 - that’s for sure).