Trying Tec

[DevonDiver]

Just to confirm... we are talking about teaching shut-downs in a kneeling position in the water?

Nothing wrong with kneeling on land to talk students through the mechanics of it... but I think sitting on a bench would be more comfortable.

I wouldn't lay students down horizontal on land for this particular skill, because the weight of doubles would be a big discomfort.

 

[Ste Wart]

Yes. Teaching shut downs in a kneeling position.
Note that I have seen this skill demo'd in a kneeling position by a Russian, English and German IT. So this is not something that is symptomatic of bad instructors, this is a valid teaching skill. I also posted that during the dives I had to perform the skills neutral buoyant. I never made any mention of kneeling in OW.

@ TSandM: In your post you stated that such instructors have no right to identify themselves as Tech Instructors. When you have never met and indeed dived with these people. You are basically insulting someone who is not here to defend themselves. Do you consider that fair? As neither an instructor or tech instructor you do not have enough experience to say if they are qualified or capable to be instructor trainers. The only people who can see that are ITT's and they have said that such people are more than capable of performing high-level dive skills. I can only assume that you are criticising all of IANTD in their selection of Instructor Trainers?

I thank my instructors for their instruction and skill. I single out my Trimix Instructor for how he went above and beyond the printed standards to show me extra skills that I would guess that most people on this board have never even tried. And yes he demo'd valve shutdowns kneeling. I'm not going to argue with a 6'5" bavarian over his teaching method :cool2:

 

[Ste Wart]

My, my, my -- what a thread and, quite frankly, of significant interest to me for a number of reasons:

a. As an OW instructor, I confess that I impress upon my students they are NEVER!!!! to kneel during class. They can be flat on the bottom, they can be on their elbows and knees -- whatever way AS LONG AS they are somewhat horizontal and NOT somewhat vertical. For that I have been called a number of names by at least one infrequent poster on this board.

Since, by the end of 4 CW sessions and 4 OW dives, most of my OW students can do their basic skills (mask flood, mask remove replace and air shares) in the water column (note, I write most, NOT all!), I can't for the life of me understand why a Technical Instructor wouldn't do ALL of their demonstrations whilst (that's for you Andy!) in the water column and horizontal.

Wart -- if that makes me a GUE/UTD/DIR arrogant fanatic -- so-be-it. Better a very good fanatically arrogant dive model than otherwise.

Peter; don't take this the wrong way but you teach all your classes in a pool. Which is all very well and good. However of the several hundred OW courses I've taught less than 10 have been conducted in a pool. Most have been in the shallows off the beach, where you have to contend with such variable as surge, the odd turtle distracting the divers and occassionally a boat aiming for your dive float. If I had the chance to teach in a pool maybe I would consider trying to get all my students to Fin Pivot/ Hover for all skills. Until you have experience in these environments your point is moot.

Perhaps if Tec was taught in a pool (which it definitely should not be taught in such a sterile environment) then hovering for all skills is a possibility. However when classes are taken in "confined" OW (approx 10 metre depths) there are a lot more things to consider. How about current? What point is there Demo-ing a Valve shutdown if by the time you have finished you have drifted onto another dive site, or indeed damaged some coral? The same with stage hand-offs. The protocol was discussed on land on how to accept and re-attach, then performed kneeling at depth, then performed swimming with no noticeable change in speed or depth. If the skill was attempted for the first time over a drop-off and the student dropped a stage into the abyss it's a tad more expensive than dropping it in a pool? So a gradual build up is better. I've already mentioned about the Equipment Removal and Cesa required for IANTD Adv Nitrox. Are you supposed to let you equipment float away while you perform the CESA and subsequent free dive to re-don? Or should you perform the skill kneeling and return to the sand to recover the equipment?

 

[rongoodman]

Just to give IANTD a break here, my instructors for Intro and Full Cave were IANTD, and valve drills were expected to be done, from the day I entered the classes, in flat trim and neutral. Some of my attempts were less elegant than others, but I never ended up on my knees.

(I actually learned to do them in a workshop given by a GUE instructor, and after going over them in a class room, tanks sitting on a table behind us, we went to the pool and tried them in trim--no kneeling involved. The kneeling demos, along with the advice to "have your buddy hold you down" while shooting a bag, are why people are still snickering about that DSAT DVD.)

 

[Sas]

Can't really see the problem of demonstrating valve drills kneeling. It's a complex skill which requires the students utmost attention. For clarity it makes sense that the instructor is not moving and can show all the critical attributes of the skill. Most of the tech instructors I've met demo this on their knees, even at the trimix level.

Firstly, valve drills are not complex. Secondly, there is no reason to do this skill on one's knees as it is not realistic for the purpose for which you learn that skill. I have never had any instructor of mine demo valve drills on their knees. I don't care how many fancy pants IANTD or whatever instructors showed you that skill on their knees - it's silly and shows poor form.

 

[DevonDiver]

Note that I have seen this skill demo'd in a kneeling position by a Russian, English and German IT.

TecRec IT status seems to be worth about 4 groats and a carrot right now...

I'm not judging anyone, but I wouldn't ever quote a certification level (even IT) as any sort of proof of competence.

I just think that if you can teach an OW student without resorting to kneeling drills, then why would a tech diver need that 'comfort blanket'?

 

[deepair]

OK, from the TDI side of the equation. We teach valve shutdowns and most other Tec skills, hovering not on your knees. Also, I would never bash any teaching agency because I have been taught by IANTD, NSS-CDS, TDI/SDI, NAUI and PADI Instructors and IMHO, It is the Instructor not the agency that matters. If you simply go by the minimum standards then you have minimally trained divers, regardless of the level. Before anyone calls the Scuba Police, I am not advocating adding skills, but instead at the Tec Level requiring a higher level of perfection. To quote a friend who had only taught Technical Scuba in the Navy and I had the pleasure of helping learn to teach Recreational scuba....." The difference in Tec and Rec scuba is that recreational is " Ok everyone we are going to have fun today,! Technical is, " Listen to what I say, and do what I tell you or This WILL kill you!" He teaches both now and I assure you that he puts out only top notch Tec divers! He also knows more about diving then I will ever know.
How you introduce the students to the skills is not as important as is their ability to perform those skills in a real world situation. So IMO if you want to start them on their knees, that's fine as long as they can do them in a realistic/ neutrally buoyant position losing very little depth.


Bill Adams

 

[TSandM]

wart, I just want you to know that I did NONE of my non-PADI training in a pool. I will confess to having done a good bit of it in Puget Sound, which doesn't have a lot of surge . . . but does have current, and managing things in current was part of what we learned. We did bottle hand-offs for the first time in the Sound, in viz low enough that, if you dropped a bottle, you were going to have a lot of fun finding it. We did them neutral and in midwater, and we didn't drop the bottles

I will admit not to have done any training or diving where you are. And environment does make a difference. But I still have a very hard time envisioning an environment where one would have to demonstrate valve drills while kneeling.

And, BTW, I'm not bashing any agency -- I'm bashing individual instructors. I have taken tech level training from several agencies (and no open water technical training from GUE at all!).

 

[Peter Guy]

Wart -- In reality I don't teach "all my classes" in a pool -- and only part of one class, Open Water. ALL my other classes are taught "in real life" where there IS current (sometimes), very silty bottom (all the time) and critters and things that "go bump in the night." At all times I strive for my students to model "good diving" which I define as being in "reasonable trim" and with control in the water column. AND NO, IT DOESN'T ALWAYS HAPPEN. These are, of course, teaching situations and sometimes sh***t happens.

I haven't taken that many tech classes so I, perhaps, have no business writing here -- especially since you have had the opportunity to watch, and work with, "very highly trained instructors" from Europe. Me, I've just had the opportunity to watch and work with a few "perhaps minimally trained instructors" primarily from my local area, the Pacific Northwest. But HERE is my experience with Technical Instructors and Instructor Trainers:

Local -- two NAUI Tech Instructor Trainers -- NEVER have seen them on their knees doing demos while in open water with currents, bad viz and silty bottoms. All students were expected to be able to maintain some semblance of positional control -- NOTE, I said "expected" -- at the very beginning stages of training (one with a teammate with 20 or so dives and in heavy current), this wasn't pretty -- BUT, she was never kneeling -- on the bottom, yes, but not kneeling and the instructor NEVER hit bottom.

Mexico -- watched three different instructor trainers -- never a hint of anything except expectation of mid-water competency and never a hint of a demo other than whilst hovering -- perhaps this doesn't count because this has always been "in pool like conditions" (i.e., caves)

Egypt -- watched an instructor give RB demo to a diver for her first RB experience -- the student hit the bottom a lot but the instructor was always hovering and neither the student nor the instructor ever knelt.

Wart -- go ahead and defend the indefensible but nothing I've seen indicates to me that GOOD instruction is done whilst kneeling. There is just no reason why ALL of the instruction can't be done just as well, if not better!, whilst in the water column -- with the added advantage of always being a good model.

 

[Ste Wart]

Firstly, valve drills are not complex. .

Are you referring to GUE or IANTD valve drills? They are not the same.

TecRec IT status seems to be worth about 4 groats and a carrot right now...

I wasn't talking about TecRec ITs, they don't require teaching experience. Well not enough.