Vortex revisited

[57Writer]

The shovel in the footage certainly didn't look like it would if it was in the cave for 8months. Color me skeptical.

Just to be clear: neither Jill Heinerth nor Paul Heinerth told anyone it was Ben's shovel. It was simply a shovel located near the back of the cave. No markings, no name. It could have been there a year - or a week. They did not retrieve it. They showed the entire video to law enforcement.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Just to be clear: neither Jill Heinerth nor Paul Heinerth told anyone it was Ben's shovel. It was simply a shovel located near the back of the cave. No markings, no name. It could have been there a year - or a week. They did not retrieve it. They showed the entire video to law enforcement.

It wouldnt matter at this point if the owner of it showed up, they would still think its Ben's.

 

[Jax]

It wouldnt matter at this point if the owner of it showed up, they would still think its Ben's.

Sadly, I agree. The attitude seems to be, "Don't try to confuse me with facts, I know what I know."

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

... of course, it's much easier to be objective when it's not your kid who disappeared.

Give the guy a bit of margin for being human, for chrissakes. Denial is a universal ability among humans ... we all do it to one extent or another. And the stronger we want to believe something, the easier it is to not allow facts or objectivity get in the way of what we want to believe.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[SC_Hoaty]

... of course, it's much easier to be objective when it's not your kid who disappeared.

Give the guy a bit of margin for being human, for chrissakes. Denial is a universal ability among humans ... we all do it to one extent or another. And the stronger we want to believe something, the easier it is to not allow facts or objectivity get in the way of what we want to believe.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

As I understand the concern, Bob, it is that the reward is still being offered, and it may entice others to die in pursuit of the reward. The fatality at Vortex on Saturday seems to bring a very fine point to this concern, even if that diver was motivated to dive Vortex solo by other factors. The potential remains.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

As I understand the concern, Bob, it is that the reward is still being offered, and it may entice others to die in pursuit of the reward. The fatality at Vortex on Saturday seems to bring a very fine point to this concern, even if that diver was motivated to dive Vortex solo by other factors. The potential remains.

I understand ... and that point has been made here several times. But the presence of a shovel has nothing to do with the reward, and just seems to provide some folks an opportunity to take another snipe at Mr. McDaniel. This man already buried one son, and has another one who just plain disappeared. Try living with that and see if every decision you make is based on evidence and objectivity. It won't be.

But to make my point, there already seem to be plenty of people ready to believe that this recent death at Vortex was motivated by a reward. Is there any objective evidence that was the case? If not, then what's motivating people to make that connection? Perhaps the same emotion ... a willingness to believe something because it's what you want to believe.

Let's not tread down that slippery slope ... this man's already suffered enough. He doesn't need to get beat up over something that may not have anything to do with him. Plenty of cavers have died for no reason other than that they tried something they weren't qualified to do, and Darwin came a'calling ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[mike_s]

I

there already seem to be plenty of people ready to believe that this recent death at Vortex was motivated by a reward. Is there any objective evidence that was the case? If not, then what's motivating people to make that connection? Perhaps the same emotion ... a willingness to believe something because it's what you want to believe.

I've not really seen that..... maybe a premature assumption by someone who didn't bother to learn all the facts, but it was shot down pretty quickly. (of course it's the internet... I'm sure you'll see more of this speculation based on lack of the facts....)

I think Larry (3-18-2012 accident victim) was just out of a weekend dive and encountered an accident. Perhaps because he was diving beyond his skill set. But nothing points that he was "looking for Ben" that I've seen. His girlfriend was on the surface also and it's not been reported she mentioned it.

I've got to agree with Hoaty that the reward will entice others. That's what the purpose of a reward is......


Seeing how Edd and many other highly skilled divers have "gone as far as they can go".... and did it for FREE.... and no other diver with the skill set to go further is willing to do it, I don't see the reward as enticing anyone QUALIFIED. It will only entice the UNQUALIFIED.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I've not really seen that..... maybe a premature assumption by someone who didn't bother to learn all the facts, but it was shot down pretty quickly. (of course it's the internet... I'm sure you'll see more of this speculation based on lack of the facts....)

I think Larry (3-18-2012 accident victim) was just out of a weekend dive and encountered an accident. Perhaps because he was diving beyond his skill set. But nothing points that he was "looking for Ben" that I've seen. His girlfriend was on the surface also and it's not been reported she mentioned it.

I've got to agree with Hoaty that the reward will entice others. That's what the purpose of a reward is......

Seeing how Edd and many other highly skilled divers have "gone as far as they can go".... and did it for FREE.... and no other diver with the skill set to go further is willing to do it, I don't see the reward as enticing anyone QUALIFIED. It will only entice the UNQUALIFIED.

That's reasonable ... and I doubt there are any divers qualified to go further than Edd went. But I think anyone who would be enticed by a reward in this case is probably reckless enough to take that sort of risk even without one. Their motivation might be different, but the outcome wouldn't be. We see it all the time ... people taking risks they're in no way qualified to take ... usually for reasons much less substantive than financial gain. Some die as a consequence ... which is as it should be. If they're dumb enough to do those things, it isn't the fault of the reward, it's the fault of the person who decided to take the risk. And the world is designed to give those folks an opportunity to enrich the world by removing themselves from the gene pool.

But my comment wasn't about reward. It was about a shovel ...

It wouldnt matter at this point if the owner of it showed up, they would still think its Ben's.

... of course they would ... and if that was your kid who disappeared, you probably would too. When someone loses an offspring, they don't base all their hopes on rational things or objectivity.

Let's not be too hard on this guy for grasping at straws. I doubt any of us would do much differently if we were in his shoes ... human nature being what it is. We all basically run the same operating system ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[mike_s]

I've not really seen that..... maybe a premature assumption by someone who didn't bother to learn all the facts, but it was shot down pretty quickly. (of course it's the internet... I'm sure you'll see more of this speculation based on lack of the facts....)

I think Larry (3-18-2012 accident victim) was just out of a weekend dive and encountered an accident. Perhaps because he was diving beyond his skill set. But nothing points that he was "looking for Ben" that I've seen. His girlfriend was on the surface also and it's not been reported she mentioned it.

I've got to agree with Hoaty that the reward will entice others. That's what the purpose of a reward is......


Seeing how Edd and many other highly skilled divers have "gone as far as they can go".... and did it for FREE.... and no other diver with the skill set to go further is willing to do it, I don't see the reward as enticing anyone QUALIFIED. It will only entice the UNQUALIFIED.

One more thing that I'd like to "add" to the above...

The reason the cave diving society gets upset when someone "does something stupid in a cave" is because they believe in their hearts that proper training and constantly improving their skill sets could have prevented this.

Anytime that someone has a cave diving accident that is not properly trained, it casts a bad shadow over the sport they love. Most of them think of themselves ambassadors of their elite sport and have great pride in making sure things are done with the highest level of safety and training.




the guys who did the search and attempted recovery prob wouldn't have accepted any 'reward'. Even if the risks on their lives were high.

They did it because it was the "right thing to do" and they were the only ones who could do it.

 

[Jax]