Warped Dive World Evolution - BP/W Subgroup Mindset

[CamG]

Greetings Halemano and for me personally I had the opportunity to try both in the pool at the OW confined dives.
That simple gesture was the deciding factor and I have not looked back ever since.
Now my wife dives a AL BP/W most all my friends do as well and no they are all not Techies.
I have been in jackets since while training and if there was an issue with a student BC I would swap them and roll on with the class.
I can dive either but when it comes to comfort and choice there is only one for me!

WHY?
Well first of all it feels clean in the front not squeezing or compressing my midsection.
They are lighter, I do not use integrated weights.
They are simple, Harness,Plate, Wing, one component goes bad replace it!
They are adjustable for who ever you wish to fit!
They are actually cheeper in the long run because they are versatile and can be adapted to doubles or other forms of diving.

They are not for everyone and I am not protesting, professing, or yammering to change anyones mind.
However if you wish to try one and you are diving around me I will let you use one of mine and give you some pointers.
I had a awesome OW instructor who believed in providing a rounded experience before you purchased your own gear.
He assisted me in trying many things and taught me the value in seeking out all the details, and putting gear to the test before you buy it!
He always drove into me BUY IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!
His assistance and philosophy has served me well especially in purchasing gear!

That is the long and short of it for me in my experience.

CamG Keep diving....Keep training....Keep learning!

 

[Colliam7]

I truly want to know why you chose to go the BP/W route?

Because my dive buddy went that route.

I'd love to have a more thoughful, logic-based, reason but that was it in a nutshell. While I had thought about scuba certification for many years, I didn't take the first step - sign up for classes - until a friend and former work colleague got certified with his son, and suggested that my son and I should do the same. Within several months after certification, my buddy bought a Zeagle Ranger and a regulator, and so I bought a Zeagle Ranger and a Zeagle regulator - I wanted my own gear, he had already done a lot of 'research' and talked extensively with the LDS manager before choosing the Ranger, and I figured I would buy one rather than spending a lot of my own time doing the same background work. A year after certification, we both bought drysuits - again, his idea, initially - so we could dive cold quarry waters all year long. (We quickly learned that the amount of lead needed for a drysuit, thick undergarments, a Ranger and a single AL80, was immense.) Then, he became intrigued by the concept of technical diving, and started talking about the PADI Tec course. I figured, 'OK, why not, let's do it', (even though I wasn't all that certain at the time what was really involved in 'technical diving'). In talking to the instructor (also the LDS owner) about requirements, we learned that we should be rigged with a BP/W. So, to prepare for the tec course, my buddy bought a Halcyon rig. I tried the owner's Halcyon rig, then tried the LDS manager's DR Transplate, and ended up buying a used DR SS plate on eBay, along with a used Rec Wing (believing at the time that it was appropriate for both single and double tanks), bought some webbing, a buckle and D rings at the LDS and rigged my own harness.

So MY decision to go BP/W had little to do with becoming more 'streamlined', although that eventually turned out to be the case. It had little to do with greater simplicity, although that turned out to be the case. It had little to do with achieving better horizontal trim and u/w control, although that turned out to be the case. It actually had little to do with decreasing the amount of added lead I had to carry, although that turned out to be the case. Basically, I let my dive buddy do all the background work, and I went along. (Notably, my buddy never did the tec course, but I did. He moved to Seattle for a job, and eventually gave up diving for fly fishing. Now, here I am with a house full of backplates and wings and tanks. )

Now, I am an advocate. I put my son in a BP/W as soon as I went that way. He loved it. Several years later, I put my teenage daughter in a BP/W after her certification. The first time she didn't like it - it wasn't 'comfortable'. The second time she loved it. My wife finally got certified last Fall. She did her first post-checkout dive in a BP/W and loved it. I recommend that new divers pursuing their first BCD purchase consider a BP/W. If they do, great. But, if they choose a jacket, or a back-inflate unit like the Ranger, that's fine too. It doesn't affect my perception of the suitability of a BP/W one way or the other.

 

[danvolker]

I am specifically interested in hearing from SB's BP/W proponents about why you first chose to go the BP/W route? As usual, I encourage everyone who cares to participate in this exchange of thoughts to share, ask questions, flame, criticize &/or rebut, however you please, but I will reiterate; I truly want to know why you chose to go the BP/W route?

Here are some posts from an old thread, resurrected recently by a fairly new member who seems challenged by math.







http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/new-divers-those-considering-diving/30911-jacket-bc-wing-bc.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/369121-warped-view-dive-world.html

H-minnow...
......So you don't thnk this is a little "out of context" ?

No matter, anyone who read through the last go round already knows you have an agenda on this. Additionally, I think we should have a poll on whether most of the divers here see you as annoyingly pedantic, or overly "retentive"....I'm having a hard time believing this is even about wings or bc's anymore

I used harnesses without bc in the 70's, had to use BC's like stab jackets in the 80's because the charter boats would require a bc on each diver ( insurance). I always felt that the steel 72 and a simple harness was much nicer to dive than any of the jacket or vest bc's of the period. typically I would wear lycra dive skins back then, so there was zero need for "compensating". The Stab jackets just had so much more profile, they would feel slower in the water, and you knew you were carrying all this cr$p on your body for no good reason.

When I finally got to try the Halcyon 18 pound lift wing in the late 90's, it was instant termination of the jacket or vest nonsense. This was almost as slick in the water as no bc at all, and when you did need to wear a wetsuit, it provided all the lift you could ever want at the deep points in the dive.

Today, most diveshops and instructors I meet in south Florida are actually quite open to, or quite interested in the bp/wing direction....there is a very small number of closed minds you can run into on occasion, and they sound very much like h-minnnow. Perhaps it is self defense, an insecuruity, or maybe it is fear of learning something new. For some stores, it makes more sense, because if they don't feel they can afford the inventory AND get the market of divers in their area to embrace this bp/wing trend quickly enough, it would be very bad for the shop in an already damaged economy. For someone like h-minnow, it does not make a lot of sense, but I am thinking this is more about his wanting to make everything about justifying everything he does, and everything he believes in.

One final thing that h-minnow apparentlyu does not get....When us DIR types talk about streamlining, it is actually much more typical that this refers to a lack of entanglement issues--things that protrude and can easily get caught. In the more technically challenging environments quite foreign to h-minnow's experiences, streamlining of gear is important. Where you have shipwrecks and big currents , or caves and currents or low overheads in minor penetrations, you often need to get very close to the bottom. As you move close to the bottom, NOTHING can be hanging off the BC. Streamlining, as it is typically mentioned in DIR material, refers to this. Being able to "belly to the bottom" is easy with a halcyon bp/wing...there is just the smooth surface--almost like you had nothing on at all.
With skin friction drag at it lowest right at the bottom, currents are rendered to be fractional, and since mild penetrations are fairly normal on shipwrecks, being able to go through an opening close to the bottom is a "typical" need, and one met far better by the profile of a bp/wing config, than that of a jacket bc with console clipped on the chest triangle, and all the other gear hanging on the front----trying to belly to the bottom could easily be a recipee for getting snagged, constantly....this is streamlinging, in it's original use.
I use the idea of streamlining for the additional purpose of allowing me to move faster through the water, and or use less energy to movwe through the water due to less drag.
The divers who don't immediately see how much more streamlined the bp/wing concept is, can enjoy their vests or jackets as if there was no such thing as a bp/wing, and none of us will mind. I don't care if h-mnnow uses a vest bc.
these threads are more for those asking the question about what the advantages are for the bp/wing....and apparently divers like h-minnow would rather de-rail these quests for answers.

 

[LakeCountyDiver]

I dove with a jacket BC for almost a year then I went to a BP/W HOG Harness. I chose the BP/W because:

1.I have very large lungs so getting a steel BP over my lungs helps the ease of trim.
2.The BP/W comes with a crotch strap that keeps my rig in place.
3.Tank stability is great and the rig does not move underwater.
4.I wanted something that is interchangeable that can change with different diving environments.
5.To be able to dive with the minimalist of gear.
6.I was itching to buy something new

It was because members of SB gave there opinion about BP/W's and that they fit 1-5 above. At least my set up from DSS does.

 

[Garrobo]

Tried one. Didn't like it. I prefer my aluminum back plate with harness and a horsecollar.

 

[Guba]

What's a "jacket style" BC? (Oh, yeah...that's the thing I certified with and dove with for a total of two dives after OW...rental)

What's a BP/W? (Just kidding...I've read these threads before.)

My first BC was (and still is) a back-inflate Genesis Nomad, which I don't believe is even made anymore, but I still use it today. It's not a BP/W, but it's about as close as one can come in a typical BC. It is not weight integrated, so I use a weightbelt, and I added points of attachment for trim weights. I also added crotch straps to make it easier to use on the surface. Is it as light and compact as a BP/W? Nope. But I also never intend to take it inside a wreck or attempt to go caving with it. That's not in my range of abilities, so it's not even a factor in selecting gear.

In my opinion, the whole "jacket BC or BP/W" argument is irrelevant...there are more than two choices to be considered, so it's not a one-or-the-other decision.

 

[waterpirate]

I started in a bp/w horse collar. I then had a multitude of poodle jackets. When I developed a need for doubles, I could not for the life of me get a set of hp 100's to work for me in a poodle jacket without falling off.
Eric

 

[BoltSnap]

Maybe both (or all of us) need to chill out and relax. This thread so far seems to be giving useful and interesting information. Halemano or anybody else should have the chance to ask questions and make their points irrespective of their opinion's popularity or lack of IMO. I wish that we all extend this courtesy to each other.

Although I have disagreed with Halemano more than I have agreed with him, I still believe that he should have the chance to ask questions without being attacked or ridiculed.

 

[Tortuga68]

Although I have disagreed with Halemano more than I have agreed with him, I still believe that he should have the chance to ask questions without being attacked or ridiculed.

Shame about the thread title then

 

[matts1w]

Today I will be grateful I do not define myself by my freakin' scuba gear.

"You are not what you own." -Ian MacKaye