What defines a "cave"?

[Peter Guy]

Why Bob, I had a great big, huge, enormous, Al 80! Why would I need anything bigger for a dive like that?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

This would be the same Island Dive Industry that thinks it's OK to destroy hundreds of years worth of coral growth in order to capture an octopus for a client to handle?

I left Maui with a pretty "bleh" impression of the attitudes of the dive "professionals" I came into contact with over there. Most don't seem particularly interested in either diver safety or sustaining the diving environment. It's probably the biggest reason I've never gone back.

How many Island dive pro's have you witnessed "destroying hundreds of year worth of coral growth in order to capture an octopus for a client to handle?"

There are more than 200 instructors working as Maui dive guides alone, hundreds more on the other Islands, yet you jump to the conclusion that the "Island Dive Industry" thinks it's OK.

How many Maui dive Pro's did you come into contact with? Typing down one's nose regarding "Maui Dive Instructors" is very popular with SB's armchair authorities, but like most of the predominantly dive industry bashing discussions on SB, the fact is that the vast majority of dive pro's in the Islands, and the World, have exemplary safety records and value the marine environment.

Let's look at Bob's response to another thread today....

... if you think PADI's bad, wait'll you meet some of the SSI folks ...

Just kidding, of course ... there's good and bad divers and dive instructors in every agency. PADI just happens to be the biggest, and therefore the one that's easiest to notice the bad apples in.

Bet if you looked hard enough, you could even find a few in the CMAS program ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Now let's make some word switches....

... if you think Maui's bad, wait'll you meet some of the Guam folks ...

Just kidding, of course ... there's good and bad dive instructors on every Island. Maui just happens to be where halemano lives, and therefore the one that's popular to point out bad apples in.

Bet if you looked hard enough, you could even find a few in the PNW Islands ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

If a lava rock anchored coral colony is small enough that a diver can turn it over, what do you think happens to it when the big seasonal storm swells hit the shore?

​

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If a lava rock anchored coral colony is small enough that a diver can turn it over, what do you think happens to it when the big seasonal storm swells hit the shore?

... and this makes it somehow acceptable for a dive guide to destroy it in order to capture an octopus for a client to hold ???

Thank you for providing a timely example of the mentality I was just talking about.

Nowhere else I've been on this planet would a dive professional defend that sort of activity. As with other things you've promoted, it also goes against the teachings of the agency you represent.

And don't EVEN talk to me about "typing down one's nose" ... you're the ScubaBoard expert in that category ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Dive-aholic]

The difference between a cavern and a cave is the presence of ambient light. If there is light it's a cavern if no light it is a cave. Both have special training requirements,

So according to your answer, if you are 400' into a lava tube that has ambient light yet the closest exit to the surface is 400' away, that is still a cavern?

That's a cave by the definition I follow, not a cavern.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

... and this makes it somehow acceptable for a dive guide to destroy it in order to capture an octopus for a client to hold ???

Thank you for providing a timely example of the mentality I was just talking about.

Nowhere else I've been on this planet would a dive professional defend that sort of activity. As with other things you've promoted, it also goes against the teachings of the agency you represent.

And don't EVEN talk to me about "typing down one's nose" ... you're the ScubaBoard expert in that category ...

Bob, I try to give the benefit of the doubt to any negative story I hear. I have not heard many details of your story but I do know that it is possible for a Wailea dive guide to have an octopus hide under a lava rock anchored coral colony that is knocked over and partially buried in the sand, compared to when the guide last saw this coral colony. Even though the "guest" might have only "saw" me moving a "coral head" to "show" the octopus, the lava rock anchored coral colony is now sitting in a better position, from a living coral perspective.

My role here on SB is something like a jester; the nearly zero to past hero, cruise ship diver babysitter. I am defending the silent vast majority that the SB 1%-ers have judged guilty. I think it unlikely one could type down one's nose from the bottom of that pit.

I only know some details of coral ecosystems, but I know a little more about the hard corals in Hawaii than the corals in other parts of the world. In 20 years I have seen nature do way more damage to corals here than "recreational mankind" has done. And then you go to Mala Wharf, which in just the 18 years since hurricane Iniki knocked it down has had spectacular coral growth; at a location that gets kicked, banged, grabbed and landed on.

I remember feeling double remorse at Ulua one dive; while taking a picture of a harlequin shrimp in a coral head, a moray eel pounced on the distracted shrimp and made a meal of it, scaring me into jerking my hand back, which broke an arm off the coral head. Then a couple weeks later the ends of the other coral arms were nearly browsed to my broken arm length by a school of parrot fish. Then a couple months later a heavy flood runoff event evidently caused a log to completely smash the coral head. For 15 years lazy, sloppy, badly trained divers have been making inappropriate contact with that coral head, but that has nothing to do with the fact that it does not exist anymore. :shocked2:

Who knows, perhaps one of the reasons Dubya pulled a fast one to "create" the Papahānaumokuākea Marine National Monument is because long ago some DSD Instructor caught an octopus for him to hold.

 

[Phreatic Fanatic]

halemanō,

Care to respond?

Actually, I was looking for specifics. How do you 'teach them well?' Specifically what do you say, what do you demonstrate, and what skills / exercises must the students complete so that they meet your performance standards so that they may safely conduct deep dives and dives in overhead environments, after having only just completed your OW course?

 

[sgl308]

To answer your question, a cavern is any area with an overhead and surface light (sunlight) as your primary source of light. Different certification agencies have different limitations when it comes to depth and linear distance to the surface, so you'll need to check on that. I know TDI is max depth 130 ft, and max linear distance of 200 ft to the surface. PADI I believe is 70 ft/130 ft respectively.

A cave is an overhead environment with no light penetrating from the surface. It also includes the depths and linear penetrations beyond the cavern limitations.

As stated before, diving in any kind of overhead environment carries with it new dangers and risks, and requires more training.

 

[Dive-aholic]

halemanō,

Care to respond?

Apparently not!

 

[Phreatic Fanatic]

Apparently not!

Bueller? Bueller? Anyone? Anybody?

 

[Sas]

*crickets*