What defines a "cave"?

[DwayneJ]

My role here on SB is something like a jester; the nearly zero to past hero, cruise ship diver babysitter. I am defending the silent vast majority that the SB 1%-ers have judged guilty. I think it unlikely one could type down one's nose from the bottom of that pit.

Do you wear a shiny star?

Dwayne

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

The "expectation" that most divers will dive beyond their training, soon, is my motivational mantra. I'm of the opinion that I better teach them well, to make sure those OW certified divers can make the deep and overhead dives they will likely make before they should.

Post #61

....

I am saying that competent new OW divers are my goal in the OW course, and competent new OW divers should easily be able to enjoy many of Hawaii's lava tube/cavern tours as well as many of the guided deep dives in Hawaii. The dives I'm speaking about are pretty darn easy, have great safety records and have inspired many dive addicts!

Post #65

Actually, I was looking for specifics. How do you 'teach them well?' Specifically what do you say, what do you demonstrate, and what skills / exercises must the students complete so that they meet your performance standards so that they may safely conduct deep dives and dives in overhead environments, after having only just completed your OW course?

You do not seem to be alone in not being able to see the reality I am describing; even badly trained people who should not have been signed off for their cert are surviving these dives without much complaint. At the end of the dive they might well be bleeding, but it is hard to say if it was lave rock or coral, and they probably bleed on shallow or non overhead dives too.

A competent new OW diver not only survives Hawaii's instructor guided cavern tours; they have fun and most learn something useful from the experience.

Post #61

....

I am saying that competent new OW divers are my goal in the OW course, and competent new OW divers should easily be able to enjoy many of Hawaii's lava tube/cavern tours as well as many of the guided deep dives in Hawaii. The dives I'm speaking about are pretty darn easy, have great safety records and have inspired many dive addicts!

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I hope they are learning now to deal with infections! Bleeding at the end of a dive is not what I would want for any divers in my care. And if they should not even have a cert, why in god's name do they?! And why are they even taken into ow and into an overhead with as yet unspecified training and advice in dealing with overhead environments. It would seem that this is an admission of a standards violation? Not ready for ow but yet given a card and then taken into an overhead only to come out bleeding? That's a great advertisement for the sport and the agency isn't it?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Just realized- new specialty- bleeding lava tube and coral scraping diver.

 

[Kern]

Just realized- new specialty- bleeding lava tube and coral scraping diver.

Isn't this why Oxycheq make the uncuttable extreme versions of their single tank wings?

 

[Phreatic Fanatic]

Post #65

You do not seem to be alone in not being able to see the reality I am describing; even badly trained people who should not have been signed off for their cert are surviving these dives without much complaint. At the end of the dive they might well be bleeding, but it is hard to say if it was lave rock or coral, and they probably bleed on shallow or non overhead dives too.

A competent new OW diver not only survives Hawaii's instructor guided cavern tours; they have fun and most learn something useful from the experience.

You do not seem to be willing to answer my question. Why is that?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You do not seem to be alone in not being able to see the reality I am describing; even badly trained people who should not have been signed off for their cert are surviving these dives without much complaint. At the end of the dive they might well be bleeding, but it is hard to say if it was lave rock or coral, and they probably bleed on shallow or non overhead dives too.

A competent new OW diver not only survives Hawaii's instructor guided cavern tours; they have fun and most learn something useful from the experience.

One does have to wonder how many of these divers who "survive" such guided dives end up not diving again once their Hawaii vacation ends ... particularly the bleeders.

What percentage of these people went along because they were assured that it would be fine ... only to struggle, scare the crap out of themselves, worry about death and injury, and ultimately decide that it wasn't worth the expense.

Why do you suppose scuba diving has such an incredibly high dropout rate? Surviving and having fun are very different things.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[SoccerJeni]

One does have to wonder how many of these divers who "survive" such guided dives end up not diving again once their Hawaii vacation ends ... particularly the bleeders.

What percentage of these people went along because they were assured that it would be fine ... only to struggle, scare the crap out of themselves, worry about death and injury, and ultimately decide that it wasn't worth the expense.

Why do you suppose scuba diving has such an incredibly high dropout rate? Surviving and having fun are very different things.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I have witnessed something like this myself...the person didn't drop out completely, but will not do anything except Ocean OW dives because they were terrified in this environment.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I hope they are learning now to deal with infections! Bleeding at the end of a dive is not what I would want for any divers in my care. And if they should not even have a cert, why in god's name do they?! And why are they even taken into ow and into an overhead with as yet unspecified training and advice in dealing with overhead environments. It would seem that this is an admission of a standards violation? Not ready for ow but yet given a card and then taken into an overhead only to come out bleeding? That's a great advertisement for the sport and the agency isn't it?

Not an admission; an observation/accusation. Not an agency issue; an industry issue. Shock and horror; every now and then we get a certified customer who is not a very good diver. Would ScubaBoard even exist if this were not a fact?

If you have a cert card you can sign up for a dive trip. If you are not a minor, you must be an adult. If your parents are with you, it does not matter that you are not an adult. The briefing indicates that the plan includes lava tube &/or cavern situations. Nobody is twisting arms and dragging people into these dives.

Some divers keep the promises they made to their OW Instructor who has no clue about what we do, and they do not go into the "deadly" overhead. Some divers are so bad on the "test" dive that we don't allow them in the "real" overheads, but that is very, very rare.

The boat I work for uses Pinnacle 5 mm long sleeve shorty wet suits; If you dive well you should not bleed, but karma happens. My mom taught me how to take care of my own wounds by age 8; soap, hydrogen peroxide and antibiotic ointment. It ain't brain surgery.

Except for the Big Island (Hawaii), I know of easy to get to from shore lava tube / cavern diving, and those dive sites are listed in all the guides. A new OW diver can rent gear (if they do not own) and go there with their similarly new buddy, without a guide. This happens nearly every day with decent conditions, and some days with crappy conditions.

I would prefer that all new OW divers who want to dive lava tubes / caverns in Hawaii make their first overhead dive on an Instructor guided tour, but I also try not to be a hypocrite.

My OW instructor made sure my classmates and I were competent scuba divers; we were already fair self taught breath hold divers. We passed our gear through a restriction within our first 10 dives after certification; in a lava tube we had all been through numerous times without scuba gear.

The "Island way" encourages honesty; since we do not prohibit things there are no laws against, people are less likely to lie to us in order to do those things. Other than not helping sell Cavern courses for Florida Cave instructors, I am skeptical of the bad impact of our bad example where we do not require additional training for dives that evidently don't require additional training.

I've been in the Cathedral off of Lanai and it is, in fact, a very benign "overhead" (actually, I didn't, and don't, even consider it an overhead). I've also done swimthroughs of any number of wrecks (Rhone for example) which are also quite benign.

 

[ianr33]

I would prefer that all new OW divers who want to dive lava tubes / caverns in Hawaii make their first overhead dive on an Instructor guided tour, but I also try not to be a hypocrite.

Are you an Overhead Instructor?