Whats happening to diving certification? Where have the standards gone?

[sotgecho]

Disagree strongly.

Plan your dive and dive your plan.

Planning involves 2 people agreeing to dive to agreed parameters which do not exceed the limits recommended by their certifying agency - ie a common depth and duration and an understanding of how much breathing gas is needed for the planned dive. (this would be a bare minimum in planning terms)

The depth and duration parameters can be sourced from tables or from a dive computer though my own preference would be from a table as for the new diver tables are more affordable.

I do believe that setting parameters before a dive can be as important as in water skills - it reduces risk before anyone gets in the water.

I believe that planning is important for all divers irrespective - it helps divers to dive within their limits and this helps to keep us safe. All the other things you mentioned are important too but if a dive plan is flawed before you get in the water it rarely gets safer once you are diving.

I am responding to the OP's original post that there is not enough time spent on the basics; I should include dive planning as well.

I have gotten stuck with "insta-buddies" who agrees with the dive plan, says they understand it, and they say they are ready; then they jump in the water and it is a whole other story. I am sure this has happened to people who are reading this thread.

You have planned your dive and then you get into the water and find out the diver you are with is flawed; parts of your plan becomes moot. Hopefully, rescue techniques have been discussed.

 

[scubadobadoo]

... Call me old-fashioned, but I tend to like knowing why things are the way they are, what makes things work the way they do.

Just by coming here to SB you have proven that you want to and need to know more. Welcome!

Unfortunately MOST of the recreational divers you will run into on boats and vacation don't care and never will. They just want to dive and I guess there is nothing wrong with that. So many discussions here on SB revolve around moot points about the average recreational diver and what they don't know or don't care to know. That will never change. It's a waist of time to discuss it and you are preaching to the choir and the church is empty. All you can do is keep practicing, keep learning, have fun and try to set a decent example for the rest and better YOURSELF as you clearly are wanting to do.

The majority of classes, dive boats, and bodies of water will be filled with the average recreational diver who just wants to dive and then have a beer or 50. The majority of new divers won't remember how to use a dive table or even care to use a dive table a month ofter the class. The majority of new divers won't even read the computer manual either. The majority of new divers will use their new cert on one or maybe two dive vacations and then move on to something else. Nothing wrong with that I guess. In fact I hope that is the case. Less people standing on the reef. My point being that the majority of new divers WANT the dumbing down of instruction. ...and SB members aren't the majority.

One way to help avoid these folks is to become an instructor and deal with them personally and try to change the world, LOL... No thanks. I admire instructors but I don't want to ruin another passion by making it a job. Other ways include going on shore diving vacations with small groups of people or just one buddy you meet here on SB or book small six pack boats who require AOW or higher. Maybe a club or a vacation with a LDS may help as well but not always.

If a new diver WANTS help and SEEKS help I offer it IF I am qualified. Otherwise, I will go diving and leave instructing to the instructors. I'm just a recreational diver diving locally with my free time and on vacation with my money and free time. I don't have the money or time to worry about things I can't change.

 

[dbulmer]

I appreciate what you are saying but again it depends on the parameters of the dive. If someone ignores the dive plan I'll do what I can to try and get it back on track but if that's unsuccessful I won't dive any longer with that person. The dive will be over and I won't lose any sleep over it.

I guess that might sound harsh but if someone's actions put me at unnecessary risk then I am solo and will have to rethink the dive. It might result in terminating the dive or tagging along with someone (I'm thinking of resorts here - for UK diving I do a skills dive first to assess the buddy).

Just my opinion.

 

[dbulmer]

Sotgecho

I appreciate what you are saying but again it depends on the parameters of the dive. If someone ignores the dive plan I'll do what I can to try and get it back on track but if that's unsuccessful I won't dive any longer with that person. The dive will be over and I won't lose any sleep over it.

I guess that might sound harsh but if someone's actions put me at unnecessary risk then I am solo and will have to rethink the dive. It might result in terminating the dive or tagging along with someone (I'm thinking of resorts here - for UK diving I do a skills dive first to assess the buddy).

Just my opinion.

 

[Murf425]

I was at my LDS Friday afternoon getting some new booties, and I struck up a conversation with the [cute] girl at the counter. She seemed completely flabbergasted when, upon her asking what kind of computer I use, I said I just use a dive table and a watch. In her words, it's weird for a "young guy" to use tables.

It's just going the way of "lost art" like everything else...standard transmissions, non-scoped rifles, charcoal grills, double-edge razor blades, etc. Everything is geared towards ease now. I, for one, like being the oddball young guy who does things the "old" way.

*ETA*
My instructor treated computers much like it sounds the one in the OP treated tables. He showed us one, briefly described what it did, and that was that. He had one on our certification dives, but NO students used them. One guy even showed up with one he'd gone out and bought, and he was told that he could not use it until he passed the course using tables like everyone else.

That, to me, seemed like a very good way to handle it. "We're going to teach you tables, because that's the harder way of doing it. If you want to use a computer, we'll show you how AFTER you've mastered the tables."

 

[sotgecho]

Sotgecho

I appreciate what you are saying but again it depends on the parameters of the dive. If someone ignores the dive plan I'll do what I can to try and get it back on track but if that's unsuccessful I won't dive any longer with that person. The dive will be over and I won't lose any sleep over it.

I guess that might sound harsh but if someone's actions put me at unnecessary risk then I am solo and will have to rethink the dive. It might result in terminating the dive or tagging along with someone (I'm thinking of resorts here - for UK diving I do a skills dive first to assess the buddy).

Just my opinion.

I agree it depends on the parameters of the dive as well.

I am drawing these opinions from my experiences on vacation dives; where you meet a lot of newly certified divers, divers who dive this one time the whole year, and the diver who hasn't dove in ten years. I was in the Bahamas two weeks ago and got stuck in these types of situations. Spend time talking to your insta-buddy to jump in the water and they swim away and ignore everything that you just went over. I feel a diver will run into this situation a lot more on these type of resort/vacation diving situations not amongst the regular divers you dive.

 

[dbulmer]

I agree it depends on the parameters of the dive as well.

I am drawing these opinions from my experiences on vacation dives; where you meet a lot of newly certified divers, divers who dive this one time the whole year, and the diver who hasn't dove in ten years. I was in the Bahamas two weeks ago and got stuck in these types of situations. Spend time talking to your insta-buddy to jump in the water and they swim away and ignore everything that you just went over. I feel a diver will run into this situation a lot more on these type of resort/vacation diving situations not amongst the regular divers you dive.

I agree - I'll shut up now for the OP's sake. And if you are ever over here let's go for a dive

 

[lowtech]

It's just going the way of "lost art" like everything else...standard transmissions, non-scoped rifles, charcoal grills, double-edge razor blades, etc. Everything is geared towards ease now. I, for one, like being the oddball young guy who does things the "old" way.

I was taught tables.
I dive a computer because I prefer more bottom time, and not having to do manual calculations.

Being the oddball guy for the sake of being the oddball is your prerogative,
but doing things the "old" way does not make is better, just saying.

 

[Hoomi]

A little flashback for those of us old enough...
(get out your old folk guitars...)

Where have all the standards gone?
Long time passing,
Where have all the standards gone?
Long, long, ago.
Where have all the standards gone -
Gone to profit, every one.
When will we ever learn?
When will we ever learn?

Anyway. Shortly after we took our class almost three years ago, PADI made the eRDP calculator a standard part of the OW course. We could buy an eRDP if we wanted, but our course included the old plastic table and how to use it.

I may not understand all the physiology science behind nitrogen build-up, decompression, etc. but I understood the concept that diving within the table profiles offered the best chances of staying safe on a dive. It was stressed that the tables were not fool-proof, that variances within physical condition, dive conditions, etc. could still result in problems even if we stayed within the NDL limits of the tables, but that also is true if we're diving a computer. Both use theoretical models, and all the theory in the world does you no good when reality comes crashing through. Our instructor also stressed that we should thumb the dive if we started experiencing certain symptoms, even if we were still well within the limits from our tables.

My wife and I both have computers now, but I still keep a copy of the tables and the instructions for their use (in case my mind forgets some part of it from lack of use) in our dive log book, in the event that one of our computers fails. It happened on our second dive trip with my computer, so I already have the experience of switching back to tables for a trip. The plastic tables and instructions are minimal weight and space additions, but can be worth their weight in gold if the choice is losing the dive time on an expensive trip.

As to the analog to our education system? I see knowing how to use tables as equivalent to knowing how to do your basic math on paper, rather than needing a calculator. With as many people as I see that cannot even count change, if the cash register doesn't tell them how much change I should receive, I'm pretty staunch on that point. Knowing how to use an electronic device is nice, but it shouldn't negate the need to know how to do something without the electronic aide.

 

[boulderjohn]

As to the analog to our education system? I see knowing how to use tables as equivalent to knowing how to do your basic math on paper, rather than needing a calculator. With as many people as I see that cannot even count change, if the cash register doesn't tell them how much change I should receive, I'm pretty staunch on that point. Knowing how to use an electronic device is nice, but it shouldn't negate the need to know how to do something without the electronic aide.

If you go through the 1214 post thread I linked earlier, you will see that this analogy gets brought up by someone new to the thread about every 200 posts, after which people explain that is is a false analogy.

A calculator is a product that performs the same processes as doing math by hand. More importantly, being able to do math by hand (or better yet, mentally) is an important skill that still exists in everyday life, even for regular calculator users. You will be surprised at how many times per day you make mental arithmetic calculations.

In contrast, a computer is NOT a product that performs the same processes as a table. Tables and computers are different ways of calculating decompression requirements. The computer could exist as it is today if no one had ever invented tables. If you have a functioning computer, there is no need to know how to do a table.

As for using it as a backup in case the computer fails, note that you will also need a timing device. If your computer failed on the first dive, then you must have a backup timing device with you as well. Here are some things to consider:

1. I use a dive watch frequently while instructing (and yes, I teach the RDP or eRDPml), and I have had a dive watch fail three times.

2. It is difficult to use tables as a back up device for a computer because it does not measure a square profile. Because it treats your dive as a multilevel dive, unless you actually dive a square profile, which is not the norm for many recreational dives, your first dive will be off the charts by table standards, and you won't be able to do the second dive.

3. If you are thinking of getting a dive watch as a backup to your computer (along with the tables) consider this. I own 3 dive watches, all of which were given to me as gifts over the years. The cheapest one would cost you about $100 more than a basic dive computer. The most expensive watch costs much more than an expensive dive computer. Yes, you can get and use cheap Casios, but the point is that some dive computers, especially used ones, make cheaper backups to your main computer than a decent dive watch.

EDIT: lowtech reminded me below that if you are using a watch and tables as a backup to your computer, you also need to keep a spare depth gauge with you.