When is a skill "mastered"?

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This discussion has devolved to Andy straining the gnat but swallowing a camel. Bringing Andy's logic to its fallacious conclusion, the student is not allow to even touch their BC inflator/deflator until dive 3. How will they descend? :D :D :D Better smack that hand before it touches a button and you get sued. In the real world we call that being anal retentive.

Your sarcasm is unwarranted and highlights exactly why you are not in a position to contribute effectively to the thread. I assume that your facitious and insulting post indicates that you have nothing positive left to contribute to the thread? A little research, or background knowledge, would help prevent your embarrassment.

PADI Instructor Manual 2013, General Standards and Procedures

Training Sequence
PADI courses’ performance requirements progress from simple to more complex. In general, each knowledge and skill development segment builds on the previous one. Teach course segments in sequential order unless otherwise specified in course instructor guides.

Note the following progress from simple to more complex in respect of buoyancy-related skill development:

PADI Instructor Manual 2013, Open Water Course, Section 3 - Confined Water

Sequencing
Conduct Confined Water Dives in sequence and do not shift skills from one confined water dive to another.

Confined Water Dive #1:

At the Surface:
2. Inflate/deflate a BCD using the low pressure inflator.
Underwater:
11. Ascend using proper technique.

Confined Water Dive #2:
At the Surface:
7. Orally inflate a BCD to at least half full in water too deep in which to stand, then fully deflate it.
Underwater:
10. Descend using the five-point method.
15. Ascend using the five-point method.

Confined Water Dive #3:
Underwater:
3. Use both oral and low-pressure BCD inflation to become neutrally buoyant. Gently rise and fall in a controlled manner, during inhalation and exhalation.
(formerly known as/aka the "fin pivot")
4. Swim at least 10 metres/yards while maintaining neutral buoyancy.

Confined Water Dive #4:
Underwater:
2. Hover using buoyancy control for at least 30 seconds, without kicking or sculling.

This process of progressive skill complexity over sequential dives/modules/sessions is reinforced in the Course Director Manual, PADI IDC Curriculum, Open Water Course, Standards and Structure:

B. What options do you have for structuring the course?

1. You have a lot of flexibility and training options for structuring the Open Water Diver course. Which schedule you use depends on the independent learning materials available, how much access you have to confined water, and what works best for your student divers.

2. Flexibility equates to convenience for student divers, however, the course must still follow a logical sequence.

a. Confined Water Dive One must occur before Dive Two. Knowledge Development Session One before Session Two, etc.

b. Student divers must master skills and knowledge before they can apply what they’ve learned on open water dives.

3. Here are a few key sequencing points to consider:

a. Confined Water Dive 1 may occur first after a Discover Scuba Diving briefing. This applies the Dive Today philosophy.

b. Student divers must master all performance requirements for one session before advancing to the next session.

c. You may combine several Confined Water Dives into one watersession, but must conduct dives in the proper sequence. Skills may be rearranged within a dive, but not moved between dives.

It can be seen that the PADI 'System' was designed to progressively introduce skills of increasing complexity over successive dives. Strict standards apply to sequencing the introduction, tuition and assessment (of mastery) of those skills.

If an instructor chose to amend those standards, not only would it be a breach of standards (with the drawbacks previously listed in this thread), it would be against the 'spirit' of the PADI system.

From the evidence presented above, this seems to include the 'early transition into neutral buoyancy'... especially with regard to performance requirements for assessments/progression/definition of 'mastery'. I guess, the instructor could get his students neutral by operating their kit for them.. before those skills were introduced?!?
 
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Your sarcasm is unwarranted and highlights exactly why you are not in a position to contribute effectively to the thread. I assume that your facitious and insulting post indicates that you have nothing positive left to contribute to the thread? A little research, or background knowledge, would help prevent your embarrassment.
It's not sarcasm when it's true. I thought you should know.

Confined Water Dive #1:
At the Surface:
2. Inflate/deflate a BCD using the low pressure inflator.
Underwater:
11. Ascend using proper technique.
So, on confined water dive 1 the student is given the essence of neutral buoyancy: Inflating and deflating a BCD using the low pressure inflator. I hope it's no surprise to you that this is how it's done in the real world. I am so glad you have solved the mystery of how students can master mask clearing while being neutrally buoyant and still be within standards. After all, the skill is in adding and expunging air from the BC. The end result is that the student should be neutrally buoyant. Forget about straining the gnat only to swallow a camel, you've just argued with a road sign and taken the wrong way home. That you question my ability to contribute anything to this thread when you have derailed it with this utter nonsense is simply ironic. You've subjected us to this entire drama fest only to ultimately prove that the students should be able to do this from the second skill introduced in the first CW section? I am utterly underwhelmed by your seeming inability to understand this basic concept.

b. Student divers must master all performance requirements for one session before advancing to the next session.

So, the student must completely master being able to add and subtract air from their BC before they continue? That's how I teach and I'm not even a PADI instructor. Wow! You don't even need any mental gymnastics here to see that they MUST be able to control that air thingy before they continue on to other skills. No wonder everyone at PADI sees doing skills while neutrally buoyant as a non-issue. It's only one if you feel very strongly that it has to be an issue. As I said earlier, it's a criticism looking for an actual problem.

Now, can we please go back to the original topic of what constitutes mastery? We've had enough of your tragic shenanigans for the time being.

 
Honestly Pete, I'm disappointed that you can't continue this discussion without resorting to low-level comments like the ones above. I think there is a lot of valid information given and discussed in this thread- and some of your posts have only been to attack the individual and not the information.

Only DD has been quoting directly from the PADI manual- this carries a lot of weight when we are discussing PADI Standards.

Inflating at the surface and deflating to descend is not becoming neutrally buoyant. Deflating during ascent is also not becoming neutrally buoyant for the purpose of skill presentation and practice.

Many instructors that I know (including myself) add air for the student during the 'tour' part of the dive. I don't do this anymore- instead I indicate to the student to do it themselves. The end result is a fairly beutral student during the tour however this is again, not the skill portion of the dive.

After reading and re-reading the USJ I am reasonably happy that I can continue teaching the way that I am teaching now. A lightly negative fin-pivot is not far off what I'm doing now. However I would like written confirmation. I am still waiting for the PADI response to my email but I suspect that will arrive shortly.
 
Inflating at the surface and deflating to descend is not becoming neutrally buoyant.
That's the beginning of the whole process. That's how my students begin to master their own neutral buoyancy.

So, why isn't it a problem for you? Why isn't this a problem for most PADI instructors? Because it simply isn't a problem. It's a red herring, a diversion, a mole hill made into a mountain and many more, but it's simply not an issue unless one just has to look past reason and make an issue out of it.
 
So, on confined water dive 1 the student is given the essence of neutral buoyancy: Inflating and deflating a BCD using the low pressure inflator.

Confined Water Dive #1:
At the Surface:
2. Inflate/deflate a BCD using the low pressure inflator.


What I read is that the students are taught the importance of positive buoyancy on the surface, and then how to deflate to descend. There is no directive for the student to control their buoyancy underwater. In the PADI OW video, it says that the instructor may make adjustments to the BCD underwater.

Confined Water Dive #1: 11. Ascend using proper technique.
'Proper' technique is mentioned during the OW Video part 1.

CW 2 has a '5-point descent' but doesn't mention inflating the BCD while descending. Instead the student is to descend feet first so they can kick if they have trouble equalising. SORTED: Signal, Orientate, Regulator, Timer, Equalise/Extend (LP Inflator to release air) & Descend.

Individual instructors such on SB who take the time to analyse such things, teach divers to the best of their understanding which is to minimise negative buoyancy. PADI's own 'Guide to teaching' directs the instructor to have the student in either a sitting or kneeling position to perform skills such as mask clearing. This is clearly against how we are trying to teach. The USJ shows a lightly negative 'fin pivot' as a way to introduce buoyancy control and trim earlier than the typical flow (introduced in CW 3 with the fin pivot). Unfortunately this is not yet backed up in STANDARDS which says that skills may not be introduced out of sequence. Given that PADI directs the instructor to have the diver kneeling/sitting in its 'Method of teaching' is it surprising that many instructors worldwide never get the student out of this negatively buoyant habit? To me this holds more 'weight' than an article in the USJ.

This thread originally is about the assessment of skills: When is a skill mastered? DD has pointed out that the PADI directive is for skills to be practiced by the student with each skill broken in to its constituent parts. Neutral buoyancy is in itself an individual skill and introduced in CW3. Combination of skills is not allowed except where stated in STANDARDS. There is definitely ambiguity here and I don't feel that anyone is being overly obtuse in debating this.

I do not feel that anyone is bashing PADI for the hell of it. I view these threads as a way for informed individuals to consider what the best teaching practices are for the safety/enjoyment of everyone involved in teaching/learning scuba. PADI Instructors are subject to certain 'rules' for teaching+assessing within the PADI system. DevonDiver has provided a solid argument involving multiple quotes from the PADI Instructor manual to argue that due to the wording used in BOLD Standards, assessment of certain skill may not be done neutrally before their due time, despite the article from PADI regarding teaching in a 'fin pivot' position from CW1 onwards.

Cordially yours, Harvey Edwards.
 
Harvey,

It is apparent that you don't understand how this thread works. Quoting and presenting actual PADI standards has no place and means little. You need to have a friend who has a cousin who called PADI and got the word from a source who wishes to remain anonymous about how things should be done.

Get with the program Bro.
 
Andy -- when I did the IDC, we were required to have several articles from the USJ that were all reprinted in the book "Best of the USJ" (I think that is what it is called). The Drew Richardson article was one that was required at that time. I suppose in a couple of weeks I'll find out if that is no longer the case. If so, then I'll have to quit referring to it, which will be a shame since it IS my "Gold Standard" for how to be a "Sea Lawyer" (Thal's description, and btw, where the hell is he in this?) and work within PADI Standards.
 
Karl's position is as a writer, instructional designer and photographer for PADI. He has no authority to change PADI policy.

He is the PADI Technical Development Executive. He is almost as high up in the organizational structure as you can get. He does not change PADI policy, but you can be sure that when he tells you what it is, he knows what he is talking about. You can be sure that when the article was approved for publication, it was carefully vetted by the organizational leadership.

The article was first submitted to the PADI director of training, who initially approved it and then kicked it upstairs to Karl to work out details.
 
He is the PADI Technical Development Executive. He is almost as high up in the organizational structure as you can get. He does not change PADI policy, but you can be sure that when he tells you what it is, he knows what he is talking about. You can be sure that when the article was approved for publication, it was carefully vetted by the organizational leadership.

The article was first submitted to the PADI director of training, who initially approved it and then kicked it upstairs to Karl to work out details.

It doesn't matter how ‘high-up’ any technical person is in PADI, it’s a business owned by Lincolnshire Management who will be looking for maximum return on investment. Why should they allow a potential income stream, like skills being done during neutral buoyancy, to be given away for free.

In addition, being a US company, the Sarbanes Oxley Act may well apply. If instructors are giving away skills, that could either provide additional income or increase Lincolnshire Management’s liability to a claim. The board are required to assess the risk for a corporate governance failure.

Far fetched? How much would the pay-out be if a student was asked to perform a mask clear whilst maintaining their buoyancy in the water column? The said student suffers an air embolism from losing control of their buoyancy. Medical costs and loss of earnings for life compensation are likely to be in the millions; I think a material risk. Link this to the negative reputation Lincolnshire Management would suffer and I wouldn’t be surprised if they initiate an investigation into non-compliance of standards.

As an internal auditor (post 157) none of this should be new to you.
 
Andy -- when I did the IDC, we were required to have several articles from the USJ that were all reprinted in the book "Best of the USJ" (I think that is what it is called). The Drew Richardson article was one that was required at that time. I suppose in a couple of weeks I'll find out if that is no longer the case. If so, then I'll have to quit referring to it, which will be a shame since it IS my "Gold Standard" for how to be a "Sea Lawyer" (Thal's description, and btw, where the hell is he in this?) and work within PADI Standards.

Peter - yes, that was the case when I did IDC also. The 2007/2010 CD Manuals don't list 'The Best of The Undersea Journal' as a required text for candidates though. Neither are 'The Law and The Diving Professional' or 'The Business of Diving'. They are listed as recommended (not mandatory). However, it is on the required list for the Course Director running the course.

It does however state:

Independent Learning Prerequisite
Prior to the start of an Instructor Development Course, Assistant Instructor course or OWSI program, an individual must complete all (16) IDC Knowledge Reviews.
Completing Knowledge Reviews may be accomplished by self-study using the PADI Instructor Manual, Business of Diving, Law and the Diving Professional, The Best of the Undersea Journal and referring to recent Undersea Journal articles in the Instructor Candidate Workbook.

Odd that a candidate should complete knowledge reviews using resources they don't 'have' to have. I don't have a copy to hand of the Instructor Candidate Workbook - perhaps that has copies of those most pertinent materials?

He is the PADI Technical Development Executive. He is almost as high up in the organizational structure as you can get. He does not change PADI policy, but you can be sure that when he tells you what it is, he knows what he is talking about. You can be sure that when the article was approved for publication, it was carefully vetted by the organizational leadership.

The article was first submitted to the PADI director of training, who initially approved it and then kicked it upstairs to Karl to work out details.

John - whenever I have contact PADI about a training or standards issue, I have been given good advice. An important difference between those occasions and this instance is that I was always given reference to an existing or forthcoming change in standards.

For instance, last year I was in discussions about existing overlap and, thus, potential integration of Tec Sidemount and Tec Deep programs. I was given information on how that could be done. Most importantly, I was given reference to a forthcoming Training Bulletin which would feature the appropriate change in standards. That change was duely published and standards were changed.

It should also be noted that Karl (and yourself) are contributory authors to the article. Thus, it shouldn't surprise anyone that Karl's (or yours) interpretation of the article, or PADI standards, is compliant with that perspective. Some might consider that a conflict of interest - where professional reputation and the need to defend published academic work over-rides the ability to present an unbiased opinion or publicly acknowledge alternative perspectives.

In the instance of 'An Early Transition to Neutral Buoyancy', the "advice" and "recommendations" given in the article conflict directly with PADI Standards. That requires an amendment to those standards, before it can take effect. No amendment has been made and no future amendment is being referenced. The article itself does not state that "standards are being changed".

Standards that would require amendment include:

1) Prohibition in sequencing skills, by moving skills between stated Confined Water Dive modules. (i.e. CW#4 to CW#1).

and/or

2) Moving buoyancy development skills earlier in the program (i.e. CW#3/4 to CW#1/2).

When it comes to the Undersea Journal, it is important to note the location of where information is presented. As mentioned in earlier posts, the Undersea Journal contains the 'Training Bulletin'. The Training Bulletin is where official changes to PADI standards are communicated. The Training Bulletin is also published separately, for instance, by electronic means on the PADI Pro website. All other areas of the magazine are covered by the caveat: "Views expressed do not necessarily reflect the policies or recommendations of PADI or its employees".

Quite simply, the article is neither directive nor canonical. As such, it should not be used as a 'reference' for standards-related issues.

Looking at the article itself:

The primary purpose of teaching students while on their knees is fractionalization. It allows them to focus on the specific task at hand. Students learn basic skills more easily if they learn them without distracting complications. They also learn better if they start simply and then move to more complicated scenarios that combine skills already learned, with each learning step allowing them to transfer old learning to new situations.

This supports the definition of the PADI 'System', as contained in the Course Director manual (let me know if you need references). Skills are taught (and assessed for mastery) in isolation (without complication) and progressively developed.

You cannot teach in neutral buoyancy until neutral buoyancy has been taught. Therefore, you cannot assess 'mastery' of skills in neutral buoyancy - until buoyancy itself has been 'mastered'. As we can see, that happens significantly towards the end of confined water skills development.

The student who has learned skills effectively and learned to swim neutrally and in horizontal trim should be able to combine capabilities and perform key skills while in neutral horizontal trim. Thus, a student who begins the first confined water dive doing a partial mask flood while kneeling should be able to remove and replace that mask in the fourth confined water dive while in the horizontal position associated with normal diving practice.

This supports the existing PADI standards, highlighting that skills are introduced in sequence, over a number of CW modules, as stated in the Instructor Manual CW Standards. Skills are introduced kneeling and in isolation. Once further skills (i.e. hover) have been introduced, in order and in the correct module, those skills can be combined. NOTE: even the article states "fourth confined water dive" - which is what I've been saying repeatedly in this thread...

"Going carefully from a vertical, negatively buoyant posture to a neutral, horizontal posture through a carefully planned sequence is, indeed, how some instructors do it, but some instructors use a different approach. These instructors have students neutrally buoyant from the beginning, even in the first confined water dive, with their legs resting lightly on the floor of the pool. They are in a position similar to a fin pivot, with their upper bodies supported by the air in their BCDs."

It is important to note the language in the above paragraph. PADI/the author are careful not to identify with either approach. The first instance of "carefully planned sequencing" is actually how their standards and 'System' state training must be done.

During discussions on this topic, some instructors have the misconception that this approach violates PADI standards. This isn’t the case. Standards do not usually stipulate precisely how the performance requirements for each skill must be met; they state only what the student must achieve. Instructors are free to use the most effective means they know to meet the standard.

This quote from later in the article claims that no standards are violated. It rightly suggests that only performance requirements stipulate what students must achieve. That was a point that I made earlier in this thread - "what student's must achieve" equals how and when 'mastery' may be assessed.

However, this quote is also inaccurate. This is because PADI Standards unambiguously state that skill performance requirements may not be moved from one dive to another (i.e. CW#4 to CW#1). To COMBINE, for instance, mask remove/replace with hover - it is necessary to move a skill performance requirement.

One could argue that it is possible to introduce a skill, without applying the skill performance requirement. That you can 'teach' before you 'assess'. This, I assume, is the crux of the "you can do it" argument.

There are flaws with that... which, again, bring into question the issue of standards.

Firstly, skills should be 'mastered' at a given stage before they are progressed. For instance, LPI manipulation (LPI inflate/deflate at the surface in CW#2) needs to precede the 'fin pivot' (CW#3), which, in turn, needs to be 'mastered' before the 'hover' is covered (CW#4). The PADI 'System' as defined in the Course Director manual, states clearly the need for progressive skill development. It also states the implications (PADI membership loss, legal liability etc) for not adhering to that 'System'.

"What flexibility do you have in sequencing confined water dives?
1. You already understand that people learn in small steps by building upon what they’ve already mastered. This is why, in all PADI courses, the skill sequence moves from simple to complex". Course Director Manual 2010, Curriculum, Confined Water Training

"Student divers must satisfactorily meet the performance requirements for one dive before progressing to the next". Course Director Manual 2010, Curriculum, Confined Water Training

Secondly, if the concept presented in the article is taken to conclusion - it means that instructors have complete freedom to introduce - to teach - any skill they want, in any order, at any time. They are only constrained in 'assessment' of skills by sequencing of performance requirements in given dives/modules. That would that an instructor could 'teach' CESA as Skill #1 on Dive #1. They just couldn't 'assess' that until the standards directed module (CW#3). Thus, the link between 'teaching' and 'assessing' is intrinsically severed.

This is at odds with how instructors are taught to teach. On IDC, instructors are taught to prepare and brief students on the skills to be attempted in that module. There is a formal process taught on IDC for this. That process includes stating an 'Objective'. The objective is defined as "a clear statement of the measurable performance requirement". Thus, for any given skill, on any given dive, the PERFORMANCE REQUIREMENT must be included clearly in the pre-dive training brief.

In essence, you cannot 'teach' a skill without stating the applicable performance requirement for that skill. This returns us to an intrinsic link between 'teaching' and 'assessment'. You cannot 'teach' something without a performance requirement. You cannot move from one module/session until all the performance requirements for all those skills are achieved.

The term that PADI actually use in their standards is "CONDUCT":

"Conduct Confined Water Dives in sequence and do not shift skills from one confined water dive to another."

They do not define what "conduct" means. Some interpret this as 'teach', other just interpret this as 'assess' (performance requirements). Whilst PADI do not define 'conduct' we may be correct to rely upon the correct English definition of the verb. That definition is "organize and carry out". Using the common English definition, it leaves us with the following interpretation:"Organize and carry out confined water dives in sequence and do not shift skills from one confined water dive to another".

Of further (and critical) note: that standard specifically states not to "shift skills". Skills.... not "performance requirements". That, to me, seems quite clear and unambigious...

A DIVE SKILL cannot be moved between confined water sessions. Neutral buoyancy ('Fin Pivot'), Hovering, LPI inflate/deflate etc etc are ALL defined as skills by PADI.

PADI define this skill: "Use both oral and low-pressure BCD inflation to become neutrally buoyant. Gently rise and fall in a controlled manner, during inhalation and exhalation.". This is taught as the 'Fin Pivot'. The skill is defined in the 'PADI Guide to Teaching' as "Neutral Buoyancy Underwater". They state it must appear in Confined Water Dive #3. They further state that you cannot move that skill into another confined water dive (you cannot bring it forward to CW Dive #1).

Buoyancy CW3.JPG
Quote from PADI 'Guide to Teaching'

The article suggests:

"These instructors have students neutrally buoyant from the beginning, even in the first confined water dive, with their legs resting lightly on the floor of the pool. They are in a position similar to a fin pivot, with their upper bodies supported by the air in their BCDs. This doesn’t impede learning because the light contact retains fractionized contact. It is not kneeling, but not having to focus on hovering".

Thus, the article is suggesting an infraction of standards. It is suggesting introducing A SKILL in a confined water dive before that skill should be conducted.

In essence, the article covers the issue of not hovering until CW#4, but has forgotten that 'neutral buoyancy' itself is defined as a skill, has a performance requirement and, as such, has a place in the sequencing of CW modules...

The article will not be correct, or prudent advice to instructors, until either (1) the 'Fin Pivot'/Neutral Buoyancy skill is moved to CW#1 or (2) a specific amendment clause is published into standards defining and permitting the conduct of neutral buoyancy from CW#1 onwards.

Or, of course, amend the entire 'PADI System' and its applicable standards, to formally define and permit more instructor flexibility with the sequencing and conduct of skills. This is what many other scuba training agencies do.
 
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