Who "Fails" Open Water Scuba Certification and why

[lowwall]

Duplicate

 

[Edward3c]

Duplicate

The form used in the UK allows the medical referee to allow diving with restrictions.

 

[wheeledgoat]

Student Perspective: my first cert was circa 2004 when I was in Jamaica on a fancy schmancy vaca. Hadn't planned it ahead of time, but jumped at the opportunity to try scuba when I saw they offered it at the Sandals resort (had always been curious to try). Dude checked us out in the pool first, where my wife decided it wasn't for her. I was good to go, so he gave me the OW book and I spent a lazy afternoon reading through it while enjoying the sun and sand.

I was having trouble deciphering the look the instructor was giving me as he graded my written test. He stared at me, looked me up and down, and then directly asked me if I cheated. I instantly had flashbacks of my ASVAB score and that feeling of 'maybe I don't belong here'. Please understand this isn't a veiled brag - my point is the extraordinarily low point that the bar has been reduced to. You can probably correctly guess this was a PADI site. (Unrelated but interesting: Despite the strict policy not to tip there at Sandals, I carefully slipped the dude a $20 bill and it remains the best twenty bucks I've ever spent. I got a personally guided tour through the most incredible coral reefs and swim throughs!)

It wasn't until 2014 or so when one of my kids was old enough and had expressed interest that I got back into it, and coming from the "outside" (not really understanding scuba culture, what the agencies were, or even the potential differences between instructors) I wound up going with this guy that put up signs at my gym. In hindsight I wish I had done a little more homework because once again I felt myself in the presence of an uncomfortably low bar. I felt woefully underprepared despite being in possession of AOW and Nitrox cards by the time that guy was done peddling his equipment and classes on us. But that's another story. We've since moved on to instructors with whom we are much more comfortable.

My point: as beginners, you don't know what you don't know! You just don't have the perspective to tell a good instructor from bad. At best, you have a vague feeling that something's off, but that can easily be dismissed since you're participating in a new activity that's full of unknowns for you and you're already off kilter.

 

[Rose Robinson]

When I started teaching decades ago, I was taught to design a test that would create a bell-shaped curve of results, which means my job was to ensure that a certain percentage of students failed. I was taught to include questions I was sure pretty much everyone would miss in order to make this happen. Years later, I learned that a test properly designed to test what students were taught (and were taught well) would never, ever produce a bell-shaped curve. Bell-shaped curve results in a class are caused by intentional test design (as I was taught), very poor instruction, or post assessment manipulation of results. A proper assessment in a well-taught class produces a J-curve, with most students doing well and the failures related almost exclusively to the people who were not trying.

Here is an explanation of post assessment manipulation.

The son of a friend of mine was a Freshman at Brown University, an elite school to which only elite students are admitted. The school required grade counseling sessions for freshman in accordance with their policy that allowed freshmen to drop out of classes at the last minute to minimize failures. (I am not sure exactly how it worked.) In his chemistry class, the professor was highly complimentary. He had an A going into the final exam, and she said his work was outstanding. She asked about future plans, and he said he wanted to be a doctor. She thought he would be a great one.

So he took the final exam and got an A, which made it incredible that his final grade for the class was a B. How could he have an A going into the final, get an A on the final, and get a B in the class? The professor explained that after the grade counseling sessions, all the failing students had dropped the class. Since she graded the class on a curve, that meant that all the grades had to slide down in order to make that nice bell-shaped curve. That meant students with solid passing grades, both in the regular class and the final, failed the class. That meant students like him, who had earned solid A's, had to drop down to a B. He said something about his plans to be a doctor, and the professor scoffed--he would never get into med school with a B in freshman chemistry. He is now an attorney.

Hi John,

Reasons why one student gets an ''A'' and another student gets an ''F'' on the same exam has everything to do with the student and nothing to do with the exam.

I won't tell you that I never got an individual question wrong, I will tell you that I have never failed an exam.

I have a Masters Degree in Business, I clearly remember the University years, the classes and the students, a few did fall by the wayside for one reason or another, the rest were successful, with success having absolutely nothing to do with the ''science'' behind the preparation of the exam.

My life partner, God rest her precious soul, had a Doctorate Degree, Suzie oozed intelligence, by just walking into a room.

Our success, my success, and I'm very successful, has absolutely nothing to do with either bell curves or J-curves, that's a lot of nonsense.

Back on topic, dive students do not fail dive training because of the exams. Herd mentality instructors, who fail to take the time to ensure full student comprehension are just as much to blame for dive student failure as anything else.

My dive instruction has always been one on one, personally, I wouldn't do it any other way.

My eventual plans are CCR, and regardless of the cost, regardless of whether I have to fly an instructor in, or me fly to him/her, it will be one on one. ''My Dime - My Time"

Rose.

 

[TMHeimer]

Good question! And, the DM example is particularly relevant.

Just as I require my OW students to perform the 300 yard M/F/S swim, I presume there are Instructors who require their students to perform the 200 yard swim. Probably, the students would need to use a breast stroke, or survival stroke (e.g. sidestroke) if their shoulder issue was like that of your DMC friend.

It has always been my understanding that the required swims at the DM and Instructor level are intended to primarily demonstrate in-water stamina on the part of the candidate, as well as speed to an extent, since they may be called upon to rescue / assist divers / students. At the DMC level, they accrue points on the basis of their speed / times for a M/F/S swim, a (shorter) non-M/F/S swim, and a Tired Diver Tow, as well as a 15 min survival float. I have had some candidates with limitations on shoulder movement (e.g. rotator cuff damage) complete a very (very, very) slow 400 yard non-M/F/S swim and get their one point for completing it, then getting 4's and 5's on their M/F/S swim and TDT, and their survival float (and the final Waterskills Exercise #5), and meet the point goal.

And, in cases where I have seen actual in-water assistance being rendered to a distressed diver, the 'rescuer' has used M/F/S, and used a breast stroke in order to keep an eye on the diver to whom they were rendering assistance. While a freestyle swim stroke might have allowed them to reach the diver a little faster, the benefits of maintaining a visual reference outweighed the slight increase in speed, and the fins enhanced the speed.

Yes, I recall taking the DM stamina tests like it was yesterday. I got into quite a few discussions on the Going Pro forum regarding the purpose of each of the 4 tests (now of course the equipment exchange is #5 that is graded, but we know it is simply a task-loading test). Won't rehash some of my old questions here, but your example of the DMC getting a "1" in doing the 400m very slow is interesting. Guess he/she wouldn't be the best one to have to get to a panicked diver really quickly....
Then again, you learn in DM course to always have mask, fins & snorkel easily accessible in case of emergency. I would probably not consider swimming without them out 200m, helping a panicked diver, then towing him back 200 yards without fins.

 

[boulderjohn]

Please understand this isn't a veiled brag - my point is the extraordinarily low point that the bar has been reduced to.

You do realize that 10-year olds can get certified, don't you? That means the course is essentially written and taught at the 5th grade level.

I can understand why you are not bragging about easily passing a 5th grade level class. That might be something a 9th grader might do.

If you are proposing that the class should be made more difficult, can you explain why that would be a benefit? If the 5th grade level is appropriate for the class, then the only benefit to making it more difficult would be to make people like you feel better about having gotten certified. If they cranked it up to, say, the 7th grade level, would that make you feel better?

 

[lairdb]

If you are proposing that the class should be made more difficult, can you explain why that would be a benefit? If the 5th grade level is appropriate for the class, then the only benefit to making it more difficult would be to make people like you feel better about having gotten certified. If they cranked it up to, say, the 7th grade level, would that make you feel better?

I'll take a swing at it, just for fun: because there are a negligibly small number of 10-year-olds with the maturity to understand and make life-and-death decisions in this problem domain.

If there were reasonably objective ways to assess the former, I'd be in favor of removing the age limit entirely. Absent that, an age limit is a generally accepted way to estimate emotional and cognitive maturity (and many would say 10 is too low).

Similarly, there are a negligible number of 10-year-olds with the physical strength and endurance to self-rescue or buddy-rescue in reasonably anticipated circumstances. This could be objectively measured, and many would say the existing standards are too low.

(Upon review, none of these really go to whether the academics should be harder, which is what you really asked. I think it's a bit of a circular argument to say that "10 year olds are eligible therefore the academics are 5th grade level" -- but IMO the academics I recall from OW many years ago are reasonable for a Scuba Diver, not for OW.)

 

[TMHeimer]

Hi John,

Reasons why one student gets an ''A'' and another student gets an ''F'' on the same exam has everything to do with the student and nothing to do with the exam.

I won't tell you that I never got an individual question wrong, I will tell you that I have never failed an exam.

I have a Masters Degree in Business, I clearly remember the University years, the classes and the students, a few did fall by the wayside for one reason or another, the rest were successful, with success having absolutely nothing to do with the ''science'' behind the preparation of the exam.

My life partner, God rest her precious soul, had a Doctorate Degree, Suzie oozed intelligence, by just walking into a room.

Our success, my success, and I'm very successful, has absolutely nothing to do with either bell curves or J-curves, that's a lot of nonsense.

Back on topic, dive students do not fail dive training because of the exams. Herd mentality instructors, who fail to take the time to ensure full student comprehension are just as much to blame for dive student failure as anything else.

My dive instruction has always been one on one, personally, I wouldn't do it any other way.

My eventual plans are CCR, and regardless of the cost, regardless of whether I have to fly an instructor in, or me fly to him/her, it will be one on one. ''My Dime - My Time"

Rose.

Very good points. With one on one instruction the need for tests may not be so great. One on one lessons is ideal-- I learned next to nothing taking Band in school because I had private clarinet lessons at home. You're missing the "group dynamic" that way, but who cares. As long as you (or your folks) can afford it.

 

[lowwall]

Similarly, there are a negligible number of 10-year-olds with the physical strength and endurance to self-rescue or buddy-rescue in reasonably anticipated circumstances.

FWIW, the limited certification for the youngest divers takes this into account.

From PADI's FAQ:
[C]hildren between the ages of 10 and 12 must attend the course with a parent and are required to dive with a parent or PADI professional at all times. In addition, they are limited to a depth of 40 feet. Children between the ages of 12 and 15 can dive with any certified adult but are limited to depths above 60 feet.

 

[TMHeimer]

FWIW, the limited certification for the youngest divers takes this into account.

From PADI's FAQ:
[C]hildren between the ages of 10 and 12 must attend the course with a parent and are required to dive with a parent or PADI professional at all times. In addition, they are limited to a depth of 40 feet. Children between the ages of 12 and 15 can dive with any certified adult but are limited to depths above 70 feet.

Yes. What if it is the parent or PADI pro that needs rescuing? Said person dies and kid must forever live with feeling it's their fault for not performing the rescue.