Why can't you make a living as an Instructor?

[k ellis]

What's to miss? It was al there. Discount means reduced and afordable means with in financial obtainability

 

[beautybelow]

Really ?? And why SHOULD diving be "affordable"....and to whom should it be "affordable"........to everyone? Is everyone entitled to quality scuba training from a seasoned and dedicated professional for next to nothing in return?

And you say that people will leave diving in favor of some other hobby because an entry level course costs more than a few hundred $$ ??

That's nonsense.......Have you been to an alpine ski area lately. A 3-day lift ticket at Killington and two 1-hour ski lessons delivered from some pre-pubescent high-school kid that took a 3-day instructor course at the lodge....costs well over $500.

THey have LINES of people willing to pay that kind of money.

Do you actually think that SCUBA instructors who conduct a 30-hour course plus 5 training dives (another 12 - 16 hours' work) to 4 or 5 students, at $300 per head is "priced too high" ? If you believe that, you should join the Obama administration's illiterate economic advisory team. Scuba training courses cost the same today, as they did 15 years ago, yet in the same time-span, housing has more than doubled, the price of gas has tripled, insurance has more than doubled, etc. The potential liabiliity to the instructor for a student's injury or death has gone up dramatically over the past decasde. Both the actual COST, as well as the financial opportunity cost to deliver a QUALITY training course, far exceeds what people are currently paying for scuba training, and the reason is that Dive Instructing has remained nothing more than a "HOBBYIST'S TRADE", run by a bunch of children living in adult bodies. As long as instructors (and even more-so the training agencies NAUI, PADI, etc.) don't take themselves and their work seriously enough to charge WHAT THEY SHOULD for QUALITY PROFESSIONAL TRAINING, to people who are serious about getting QUALITY training, then recreational scuba training will continue to have to be subsized by the instructors themselves. At the end of the day, IT IS NOT WORTH IT, to be a diving instructor these days. All the nice fluffy bull about "loving what you do" is nonsense. Sorry, but the REALITY of this needs to be said by someone with the balls to tell the unvarnished truth.

Do the math.....most instructors wind up making LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE; after all costs and fees are accounted for; and for what ? To work their a$$ off while accepting substantial liability for the safety, health, and eventual competence of their students, while often taking substantial risk themselves, and working laboriously in sometimes rather uncomfortable conditions.

I've been an instructor for more than 30 years, and have trained thousands of divers. I did it "part time" as well.....and "for the fun of it". To be completely honest....it wasn't really all that much fun. I quit instructing last year because I'm FED UP with this broken business model. I too taught diving because I LOVE the sport....but you have to realize that this sport doesn't LOVE YOU back. If you put your heart and soul into something like this, while then accepting getting ripped off of your time and effort, the enjoyment eventually evaporates. The only people making a decent income from diving, are the liability insurance providors, and the training agencies. As one who has been passionate about this sport since the 1970s, while being one who understands economics and business....I unequivocally, and unapologetically say that being a diving instructor nowadays is a JOKE, and is a WASTE of your time, energy, and efforts, and if you LOVE diving and are serious about this sport; than go and DIVE.....but don't waste your time teaching.....it is a pain in the arse and will cost you far more money than you'll make with it. If you want to "make money" diving, then go to commercial diving school and go to work in the oil and gas industry as a REAL PROFESSIONAL diver, in an industruy that REALLY RECOGNIZES and REWARDS professionalism.

The recreational dive industry doesn't REWARD excellent instructors.....it EXPLOITS them. This is the fault of the dive training agencies, and their liability insurers. If they had half a brain; dive training would be priced according to minimum suggested retail pricing standards, just like any other BRANDED product or service sold in the market place.

In summary, if you really LOVE to dive....then go and DIVE, but don't teach....you'll be wasting your time. Except for the training part, diving is a very expensive sport (in terms of equipment, travel, etc.). So, you are far better off entering some vocation or profession that PAYS YOU a FAIR income, so that you can have enough financial resources to actually DIVE. If you think that being a dive instructor will somehow subsidize the cost of your diving activity.....you are mistaken, it doesn't. It will COST you far more to teach diving, than you will ever earn from it.[/LEFT]

I was quoting someone to make a point they were wrong. I am on your side. Steady Striker.

 

[Doriadiver11]

Wow a little bitter over the price. I stand by my statement though ...........

Diving is what it is and that is a recreational sport. I am getting into diving and looking to become an instructor so I can help people enjoy this sport not buy a new BMW every week and if that hurts peoples feelings then sorry. I know the real value of time and its not monetary. Its the priceless memories we make in life and the relaxation we get away from every day life. Its making life long friends who ......Sorry your bitter about the subject but you stated your opinion this is just mine

........


Yes indeed....I"m bitter and angry that my time, energy, and efforts as a REAL PROFESSIONAL are so diminished by HOBBYISTS....like yourself. Your retort, reinforces the problematic issue with dive INSTRUCTOR training. You write that you're " just getting into diving...."... so you're not speaking from any experience. You know NOTHING about the economic dynamics or the history of where this sport came from. Another post said it correctly as well.... it is FAR TOO EASY nowadays, to gain an instructor certification (qualification is another story). Instructor courses in the 1970s were 8 weeks long.....today they are 8 days. Instructors trained in the 70's and early 80s had REAL SKILLS....... Today, it is hit or miss if an instructor is even competent. It is RIDICULOUS. Several weeks ago I ran into a newly minted PADI instructor. He was a nice guy, but he was morbidly obese, and was in the middle of taking his insulin injection. How a training agency can issue instructor training credentials to a man who can barely climb a flight of stairs and runs the risk of diabetic coma while being charged with the safety of 8 or 10 students unerwater is beyond me. But it is this mentality within the dive industry.....that ANYBODY can INSTRUCT.....ANYBODY CAN DIVE.....and EVERYBODY SHOULD AFFORD IT.....is what has KILLED This sport and this industry.

You're "just getting into diving" ? How many dives have you logged....? 10, 15, a dozen maybe. I'm sure with 20 more dives you'll be an instructor too; which makes the credential OF NO REAL VALUE. Certainly not to me. Please, have a little respect for the knowledge and experience of those who came before you. I have well over 6,000 dives, and have been an instructor for MORE THAN 30 YEARS, hold MS and MBA degrees in engineering, Economics, and Finance, ....so please don't insult my intelligence by claiming to know more about this industry, and about economics than I do. It is HOBBYISTS like you who are willing to accept making less than minimum wage for what should be a respected PROFESSIONAL vocation; and more-so the CORRUPT training agencies who allow this.....that have transformed Diving Instruction from being a respected profession into A JOKE....... It's your philosophy that has DESTROYED this industry for those who TRULY LOVE it and are passionate about it......YES...I AM BITTER......AND RIGHTFULLY SO.

 

[fjpatrum]

........


Yes indeed....I"m bitter and angry that my time, energy, and efforts as a REAL PROFESSIONAL are so diminished by HOBBYISTS....like yourself. Your retort, reinforces the problematic issue with dive INSTRUCTOR training. You write that you're " just getting into diving...."... so you're not speaking from any experience. You know NOTHING about the economic dynamics or the history of where this sport came from. Another post said it correctly as well.... it is FAR TOO EASY nowadays, to gain an instructor certification (qualification is another story). Instructor courses in the 1970s were 8 weeks long.....today they are 8 days. Instructors trained in the 70's and early 80s had REAL SKILLS....... Today, it is hit or miss if an instructor is even competent. It is RIDICULOUS. Several weeks ago I ran into a newly minted PADI instructor. He was a nice guy, but he was morbidly obese, and was in the middle of taking his insulin injection. How a training agency can issue instructor training credentials to a man who can barely climb a flight of stairs and runs the risk of diabetic coma while being charged with the safety of 8 or 10 students unerwater is beyond me. But it is this mentality within the dive industry.....that ANYBODY can INSTRUCT.....ANYBODY CAN DIVE.....and EVERYBODY SHOULD AFFORD IT.....is what has KILLED This sport and this industry.

You're "just getting into diving" ? How many dives have you logged....? 10, 15, a dozen maybe. I'm sure with 20 more dives you'll be an instructor too; which makes the credential OF NO REAL VALUE. Certainly not to me. Please, have a little respect for the knowledge and experience of those who came before you. I have well over 6,000 dives, and have been an instructor for MORE THAN 30 YEARS, hold MS and MBA degrees in engineering, Economics, and Finance, ....so please don't insult my intelligence by claiming to know more about this industry, and about economics than I do. It is HOBBYISTS like you who are willing to accept making less than minimum wage for what should be a respected PROFESSIONAL vocation; and more-so the CORRUPT training agencies who allow this.....that have transformed Diving Instruction from being a respected profession into A JOKE....... It's your philosophy that has DESTROYED this industry for those who TRULY LOVE it and are passionate about it......YES...I AM BITTER......AND RIGHTFULLY SO.

I get where you're coming from but remember it was "HOBBYISTS" who started this sport and made it into what you remember (rightly or wrongly) as the "heyday" of diving in the 70s and 80s. Yes, most of us will agree training has been made easier. Many will even agree that it has been to the detriment of the sport. Remember though, without all the millions of poorly trained divers out there you wouldn't have had a job for the last 30 years because prior to the big agencies making diving more acceptable to the masses the elitists wouldn't have needed your help.

You're a professional (or were since you said you've "retired" because you're sick of it) but you weren't always a professional. Give some of the younger guys a break and realize that folks like K Ellis want to be what you think yourself to be. Someone with a passion for the sport who wants to share that passion with other people. Who cares how many dives a person has when they decide they want to be a pro. The point is they want to share their passion and that is to be commended, not slapped down because they don't have as many dives as you and haven't been around as long as you have. (I also think if you read more of K Ellis' posts you'll find he's someone who is trying to gain as much experience as possible, not a "fly by night" type of guy just doing the bare minimum to get his professional rating.)

In other words, get over yourself. In another forum I frequent the concept of what makes someone professional came up. My answer then was the same... professionalism is about how you treat the work you are doing not about experience level. If you carry yourself professionally, then you are a professional, whether you are a hobbyist or not. Part of that means not bad-mouthing other professionals. Maybe it's a lesson you never learned or you've forgotten. If you were the best instructor on the planet and offered your course for free, I would still go somewhere else because you have a sh**ty attitude. It's supposed to be fun. You seem to have forgotten that somewhere along the way.

 

[herbdb]

Actually, Doriadiver11, Padi requires at least 60 logged dives for divemaster and at least 100 logged dives to take the instructor evaluation. I don't think its as bad as you make it seem. There are good and bad instructors in every activity. It doesn't take thousands of dives to master and instruct basic recreational skills.

You are not the only person with advanced degrees who posts here. They don't make you a better diver or instructor.

 

[beautybelow]

Well part of the problem with instructing is that too many people want to make it a gold mine. That being said there is competition out there at almost any place you go and those instructors to want to make a living so they too have to compete with each other for the relatively small amount of potential divers.

One divemaster I recall saying along time ago that the profitability is driven down because of people doing it because they love the sport or because they are being a good friend. This in reality only accounts for a small percentage.

its really all about supply and demand and when on average say 500 people want to get certified (Just an example) and 20 shops are trying to survive then its only natural that each shop would drop prices and try everything they can to get as many of those 500 students as possible. Then you break it down further and say the shops each have 5 instructors. Now 100 instructors are competeing to get as many of the 500 students as possible. This is the biggest driving reason behind why instructors dont make much money.

In my opinion though diving should be affordable unlike popular belief. So many people believe their time is valuable (which it is) but priced too high we will only succeed in suffocating our sport into the history books because people will simply opt for other hobbies and enjoyments.

This was my reply to that part of his post:

In my opinion, that scenario is doubtful. Just my opinion. Too many people with too much money still wanting to go diving and do whatever it takes to do so. (they don't all hang out here, trust me)​

​

If you are smart you can work around the competition factor. let the other instructors go get drunk on "transition night" and you be the only one at the shop and start holding hands from the beginning and see what happens tip wise throughout the week.​

​

Maybe I only have 5,000 dives and have only been in the business for 15 years but I am not really bitter about a few people complaining on scubaboard about the price of diving. Like I said, there are plenty of people who pay to do what they want, when they want, where they want to support this industry.

Hopefully Mr/Mrs super instructor understands now I am on their side technically but don't think a rant is necessary to get a point across.

 

[k ellis]

........


Yes indeed....I"m bitter and angry that my time, energy, and efforts as a REAL PROFESSIONAL are so diminished by HOBBYISTS....like yourself. Your retort, reinforces the problematic issue with dive INSTRUCTOR training. You write that you're " just getting into diving...."... so you're not speaking from any experience. You know NOTHING about the economic dynamics or the history of where this sport came from. Another post said it correctly as well.... it is FAR TOO EASY nowadays, to gain an instructor certification (qualification is another story). Instructor courses in the 1970s were 8 weeks long.....today they are 8 days. Instructors trained in the 70's and early 80s had REAL SKILLS....... Today, it is hit or miss if an instructor is even competent. It is RIDICULOUS. Several weeks ago I ran into a newly minted PADI instructor. He was a nice guy, but he was morbidly obese, and was in the middle of taking his insulin injection. How a training agency can issue instructor training credentials to a man who can barely climb a flight of stairs and runs the risk of diabetic coma while being charged with the safety of 8 or 10 students unerwater is beyond me. But it is this mentality within the dive industry.....that ANYBODY can INSTRUCT.....ANYBODY CAN DIVE.....and EVERYBODY SHOULD AFFORD IT.....is what has KILLED This sport and this industry.

You're "just getting into diving" ? How many dives have you logged....? 10, 15, a dozen maybe. I'm sure with 20 more dives you'll be an instructor too; which makes the credential OF NO REAL VALUE. Certainly not to me. Please, have a little respect for the knowledge and experience of those who came before you. I have well over 6,000 dives, and have been an instructor for MORE THAN 30 YEARS, hold MS and MBA degrees in engineering, Economics, and Finance, ....so please don't insult my intelligence by claiming to know more about this industry, and about economics than I do. It is HOBBYISTS like you who are willing to accept making less than minimum wage for what should be a respected PROFESSIONAL vocation; and more-so the CORRUPT training agencies who allow this.....that have transformed Diving Instruction from being a respected profession into A JOKE....... It's your philosophy that has DESTROYED this industry for those who TRULY LOVE it and are passionate about it......YES...I AM BITTER......AND RIGHTFULLY SO.

Sorry you feel that way. It does not change the way I feel.

Like I said I love the sport and its what I live for. LOL thanks for the young in the sport compliment. I started in 2007 and never miss a dive so probably well over 1500 hundred if I did not stop logging every dive.

As far as making it affordable it has in many ways helped the industry. Yes there are those who can afford any price and will pay any price but more gear is being sold today then when training was outrageous. Its because more people are able to afford and thus more people spend money on it.

Anyway thank you for your kind words. Have a great day too

 

[k ellis]

In other words, get over yourself. In another forum I frequent the concept of what makes someone professional came up. My answer then was the same... professionalism is about how you treat the work you are doing not about experience level. If you carry yourself professionally, then you are a professional, whether you are a hobbyist or not. Part of that means not bad-mouthing other professionals. Maybe it's a lesson you never learned or you've forgotten. If you were the best instructor on the planet and offered your course for free, I would still go somewhere else because you have a sh**ty attitude. It's supposed to be fun. You seem to have forgotten that somewhere along the way.

Very well said!

This was my reply to that part of his post:

In my opinion, that scenario is doubtful. Just my opinion. Too many people with too much money still wanting to go diving and do whatever it takes to do so. (they don't all hang out here, trust me)​

If you are smart you can work around the competition factor. let the other instructors go get drunk on "transition night" and you be the only one at the shop and start holding hands from the beginning and see what happens tip wise throughout the week.​

​

Maybe I only have 5,000 dives and have only been in the business for 15 years but I am not really bitter about a few people complaining on scubaboard about the price of diving. Like I said, there are plenty of people who pay to do what they want, when they want, where they want to support this industry.

Hopefully Mr/Mrs super instructor understands now I am on their side technically but don't think a rant is necessary to get a point across.

Though we do seem to have a difference of opinion I will say thank you for doing so civil like. I do appreciate that

 

[Mayor]

........Yes indeed....I"m bitter and angry that my time, energy, and efforts as a REAL PROFESSIONAL are so diminished by HOBBYISTS....like yourself. Your retort, reinforces the problematic issue with dive INSTRUCTOR training. You write that you're " just getting into diving...."... so you're not speaking from any experience. You know NOTHING about the economic dynamics or the history of where this sport came from. Another post said it correctly as well.... it is FAR TOO EASY nowadays, to gain an instructor certification (qualification is another story). Instructor courses in the 1970s were 8 weeks long.....today they are 8 days. Instructors trained in the 70's and early 80s had REAL SKILLS....... Today, it is hit or miss if an instructor is even competent. It is RIDICULOUS. Several weeks ago I ran into a newly minted PADI instructor. He was a nice guy, but he was morbidly obese, and was in the middle of taking his insulin injection. How a training agency can issue instructor training credentials to a man who can barely climb a flight of stairs and runs the risk of diabetic coma while being charged with the safety of 8 or 10 students unerwater is beyond me. But it is this mentality within the dive industry.....that ANYBODY can INSTRUCT.....ANYBODY CAN DIVE.....and EVERYBODY SHOULD AFFORD IT.....is what has KILLED This sport and this industry. You're "just getting into diving" ? How many dives have you logged....? 10, 15, a dozen maybe. I'm sure with 20 more dives you'll be an instructor too; which makes the credential OF NO REAL VALUE. Certainly not to me. Please, have a little respect for the knowledge and experience of those who came before you. I have well over 6,000 dives, and have been an instructor for MORE THAN 30 YEARS, hold MS and MBA degrees in engineering, Economics, and Finance, ....so please don't insult my intelligence by claiming to know more about this industry, and about economics than I do. It is HOBBYISTS like you who are willing to accept making less than minimum wage for what should be a respected PROFESSIONAL vocation; and more-so the CORRUPT training agencies who allow this.....that have transformed Diving Instruction from being a respected profession into A JOKE....... It's your philosophy that has DESTROYED this industry for those who TRULY LOVE it and are passionate about it......YES...I AM BITTER......AND RIGHTFULLY SO.

I'm with you on this! Stop the weekend warriors and the organizations who promote that anyone can become an instructor as long as the check clears. I know some highly skilled instructors who have been diving for 30 plus years and struggle to make a living at the sport they love. You will never see me take a class or buy a card from one of these organizations. In fact I might send the ones I have back....

 

[merxlin]

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