Why do you Lie?

[scubafanatic]

I doubt you would be able to pull my datamask off and look at it without me noticing.

...which draws into the discussion all of the following:

1) would I buddy with someone with only ONE instrument monitoring their gas pressure ?

2) worse, would I buddy with someone whose only source of gas pressure info is a potentially 'flaky' wireless AI 'connection'?

3) worse yet, would I buddy with someone whose only 'source' of gas pressure info is on an easily dislodged/lost dive mask ?

 

[Ana]

Given the overly aggressive/possessive attitude, I don't know that we would ever be buddies in the first place. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you don't sound like much fun to dive with. The guy with the bloody stump comment is even WORSE. I might not get on his boat to begin with. Life is too stinking short to waste it dealing with such naked aggression marked by anti social comments.

Not to defend anyone but it appears to me these people you are referring to are just responding to what they perceive as some type of aggression.

Granted all these should be a mute point if agreements are made before splashing. But seriously, you are diving with a human from the boat and suddenly is grabbing your gear, you don't react defensively?

Maybe it varies with individuals, I certainly like my personal space and do not welcome intrusions.

I can see an instructor checking up gauges, first of all there is some relationship established, the student may feel overwhelmed with tasks and it may be wise from the instructor on the first few lessons to physically grab the gauge and see for himself. By the end of the course if the student lie and runs out of air.. oh well hopefully you guys are shallow enough to make it to the surface, then the instructor can check the box for the emergency ascent lesson.

As far as questioning why people lie? pleeeeease, how about asking why in the world would you actually depend on a stranger that happen to be in the same boat at the same time as you? I read above "they have my emergency air" really? adults openly put a potential "oh crap" moment in the hands of strangers. I have no words for that.
People lie, no way I would put my safety in the hands of a potential liar.

 

[dmoore19]

Given the overly aggressive/possessive attitude, I don't know that we would ever be buddies in the first place. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you don't sound like much fun to dive with. The guy with the bloody stump comment is even WORSE. I might not get on his boat to begin with. Life is too stinking short to waste it dealing with such naked aggression marked by anti social comments.

No aggression involved from my POV.

Actually one of the reasons I posted was to show, once again, there is an exception to every situation. I have a Datamask, you cannot sneak a peak at my pressure without removing my mask or programing your computer to monitor my pressure.

You sure as hell are going to have a battle removing my mask at depth. If you don't have a computer that is capable of programing to watch my pressure, the only alternative is to ask me because I have no intention of removing my mask just so you can see my pressure for yourself. I will gladly supply my buddy with an honest response to their question at anytime, you would need to trust my response as I am not going to remove my mask to prove it to you.

The point of my post was to say that the one way for you to see my pressure for yourself is to remove my mask. If removing my mask to see my pressure is your intention, you are right, I would get aggressive and attempt to prevent you from doing so. If you have the ability to program your VT3 to monitor my pressure, just ask. If we were going to be buddies I would not have a problem with it and would help by supplying the sender unit number necessary and be quite interested in seeing the process involved while doing it. In fact I would like the fact if you wanted to monitor my gas as my buddy, another set of eyes and another brain would be quite agreeable to me.

If your intention is to secretly acquire that information to monitor my gas, that is wrong. I can't see where asking me is a problem, again as a buddy I would allow you to program your VT3 for that purpose. I didn't say there would be blood or aggression, unless you were to attempt to remove my mask at depth, then we would have a problem. Just ask, very simple actually. If I found out that you acquired the information secretly we would not be buddies. No aggression or possessive behavior is involved. You be honest with me, I'll be honest with you.

If you can't understand my demand to know if you want to monitor my gas by programing your computer to do so, then you are correct, we probably would not ever be buddies. Secretly acquiring information would be a breach of my trust. Simply ask me or go spy on somebody else.

 

[dmoore19]

...which draws into the discussion all of the following:

1) would I buddy with someone with only ONE instrument monitoring their gas pressure ?

2) worse, would I buddy with someone whose only source of gas pressure info is a potentially 'flaky' wireless AI 'connection'?

3) worse yet, would I buddy with someone whose only 'source' of gas pressure info is on an easily dislodged/lost dive mask ?

If this is the case and this would put a stop to you being my buddy, so be it. No problem, I understand your concerns.

#1 is valid in your opinion, that's fine and if that is the case the rest of your points make no difference, you and I would not be buddies at your request.

#2 is strictly your opinion, if you don't like AI I understand, I like it and will continue to use it. If I lose my pressure readings I will surface, the dive is over. If your pressure indicator quits you would do the same I'm sure.

#3 if my mask becomes dislodged and I lose it, the dive is over anyway now isn't it.

You and I could probably sit and enjoy each others conversation, we probably would not dive as buddies because you don't like my equipment. That's fine, nothing personal. There are people I won't ride in a car with because I don't like the way the dive, I understand your concerns but don't find them to be a reason to not dive, you do. No problem we all have opinions and are free to have them.

 

[scubafanatic]

If this is the case and this would put a stop to you being my buddy, so be it. No problem, I understand your concerns.

#1 is valid in your opinion, that's fine and if that is the case the rest of your points make no difference, you and I would not be buddies at your request.

#2 is strictly your opinion, if you don't like AI I understand, I like it and will continue to use it. If I lose my pressure readings I will surface, the dive is over. If your pressure indicator quits you would do the same I'm sure.

#3 if my mask becomes dislodged and I lose it, the dive is over anyway now isn't it.

You and I could probably sit and enjoy each others conversation, we probably would not dive as buddies because you don't like my equipment. That's fine, nothing personal. There are people I won't ride in a car with because I don't like the way the dive, I understand your concerns but don't find them to be a reason to not dive, you do. No problem we all have opinions and are free to have them.

#1 I'm not necessarily saying I won't buddy with ya for that reason, just sayin' it would cause me to raise an eyebrow though, especially as a decent brand new SPG is only $ 100, trivial to the owner of a $ 1500 mask.

#2 I dive with THREE (3) pressure indicators per reg set (analog SPG, 'wireless' A.I. Cochran GEMINI, and 'hosed' A.I. computers (either Oceanic Pro Plus IIs or Atomic Cobalts), so I've got nothing against A.I or wireless, my 'issue' is relying SOLELY on a 'wireless' info source, that to me is a big no-no!

#3 dives don't end with a lost mask, it sounds like you don't dive with a spare mask, another of my no-no's.

...not saying I'm a gear snob or lose tons of sleep over what gear other recreational divers use, I pretty much consider myself a 'solo' diver on trips with very little expectation of help from anyone else, so that's why I practice 'defensive diving' with respect to my gear configuration/choices.

 

[dmoore19]

#1 I'm not necessarily saying I won't buddy with ya for that reason, just sayin' it would cause me to raise an eyebrow though, especially as a decent brand new SPG is only $ 100, trivial to the owner of a $ 1500 mask.

#2 I dive with THREE (3) pressure indicators per reg set (analog SPG, 'wireless' A.I. Cochran GEMINI, and 'hosed' A.I. computers (either Oceanic Pro Plus IIs or Atomic Cobalts), so I've got nothing against A.I or wireless, my 'issue' is relying SOLELY on a 'wireless' info source, that to me is a big no-no!

#3 dives don't end with a lost mask, it sounds like you don't dive with a spare mask, another of my no-no's.

...not saying I'm a gear snob or lose tons of sleep over what gear other recreational divers use, I pretty much consider myself a 'solo' diver on trips with very little expectation of help from anyone else, so that's why I practice 'defensive diving' with respect to my gear configuration/choices.

Like I said, it's fine, it really isn't personal at all.

I didn't pay $1500 for the mask. It was much less than that. And I got it at my LDS, but that's for another thread.

I just don't like the extra hose an spg would require. I like how clean my rig is. I have a dive watch that monitors depth and time, (Citizen EccoDrive 20th anniversary model that records time and current and max depth) I always log my dives and use an erdp to plan and watch my pressure groups. I am considering buying an SPG and carrying it in a save a dive kit. I don't think I will put it on the reg but I wouldn't mind having it in my bag just to keep from missing the next dive.

No, I don't dive with an extra mask. I have my old mask but don't carry it on a dive. I do carry it in my bag as extra equipment.

 

[sierrakilo]

Interesting read, this thread.

The way I see it, it's inevitable that some people lie about their air consumption. A few people have already elaborated on the reasons why some divers do it, so I won't go further into that. So, when we know some divers lie about their remaining air, how do we handle it?

Well, I for one don't like the "I'll just grab it and have a look" approach. It seems a little aggressive to me - if possible I'd much rather try to position myself so I could read the gauge. It's usually not too hard.

But in open water diving with an instant buddy, I don't really think it's such a big problem. I'm confident I can handle a situation with my buddy running out of air, and I know I'm not going to run out of air, because I look at my own SPG right?

Working as an instructor and divemaster, I've sometimes checked peoples tank after the dive and see if it corresponds to what they told me under water. Sometimes I find they've been lying a bit, but I never call them on it. I just dive more conservatively with them on the next dive, and deduct quite a bit from what they they report as their remaining air. Why don't I call them on it? Why should I? They're there to have a good time, and that's what I provide. When I know they're about to go low on air, (because I've seen their SPG or know they've got a bit less than they say) I'll even sometimes call the dive myself by lying about my own air (only the other way around in this case,) or by signalling I'm getting uncomfortably cold.

Everyone saves face, no harm done.

Sometimes I'll bring up the "lying about air" phenomenon in a humorous conversation, maybe telling of how I once as a novice diver did it and how my buddy did it too on the same dive! And we ended up asking for each others octos on the safety stop, and both had to do a controlled emergency swimming ascent together. Hilarious story. Totally untrue too, but it lifts the mood and takes the macho bravado pressure somewhat off. Then I tell, that's why I always round down, when people ask me how much air I have nowadays. It's a bit artful, but I prefer to affect people subtly, rather than seek confrontations. In the end it most often achieves the same objective.

Best regards and safe diving,
SK

 

[BrianKon]

So here I am enjoying what looks to be a great dive and all of a sudden my buddy is panicked because hes at 500psi while we are at 80'. Im still at 1100 psi. How in the world did he get from 2200 to 500 in the time it took me to use 400 psi? His answer to me was that he went a little deeper (he did by maybe 10-15' for a couple of min) but I cant see this using 1700 psi!

We surfaced and ended the dive at 36 min. He would not show me what was left in his tank.

What do you do in these situations, and am I coming across as too much of a jerk being concerned?

In this situation I would try to remain calm and rationalize with that person how important it is to trust in each other, put the shoe on the other foot and get their response. Perhaps go over a scenario that could occur which would put both of you in
danger. Was it pride, embarrassment, unfamiliarity with rental equipment, narced?
You probably know which one, try to talk through it, get others involved to aid in the conversation. YOU are responsible for your own safety, take whatever measures you feel are necessary to get the answers.

As a DM, you get "lied" to all the time, I will always assume you have 200-300 less PSI than you signal me. These divers are relatively easy to spot, during the surface interval I will go over to these divers and let them know I knew they weren't signaling the proper PSI to me, counsel them on the importance and review their gauge markings with them. Try to find a reason to let them off the hook and they should readily cooperate. There are instances where they simply misread their gauge because it was a rental and had different markings than what they were used too.

good diving to you

Brian

 

[The Chairman]

No aggression involved from my POV.

Yeah, I forgot you were the one with the data mask: the exception to the rule. I can't remember the last time I saw one on a boat. I think it was last year some time and the weren't my buddy. It's not a problem I have needed to surmount.

I don't have a problem with a buddy giving me info: I don't have to look. However, too often the info I get is fudged. Its usually painfully obvious and I don't like that. It destroys trust. But with most insta-buddies, getting their attention to GIVE me the data I need to feel comfortable is an exercise in frustration. You can wave, flash or moon them and still not get their attention. Often, it's simply easier to duck under them and take a quick gander at their SPG. No need to touch usually and I know what I need to know.

That being said, I don't like diving with Francis. He needs to lighten up!

​

 

[boulderjohn]

Hilarious story. Totally untrue too, but it lifts the mood and takes the macho bravado pressure somewhat off. Then I tell, that's why I always round down, when people ask me how much air I have nowadays. It's a bit artful, but I prefer to affect people subtly, rather than seek confrontations.

Here in Colorado white water rafting is really popular, and before the trip starts, the guides give a briefing on key safety rules that must be followed. They include vivid stories illustrating why they are important. I know one of these guides, and he assures me none of the stories are true, but they get the point across effectively.