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Why give primary instead of alternate regulator?

Discussion in 'Basic Scuba Discussions' started by ScubaRob0311, Oct 4, 2019.

  1. Storker

    Storker Divemaster

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    Given that my secondary is located just below my chin and free from any entanglements, I rather doubt that. I've messed up and tangled my primary reg hose before I learned how to do it properly; I've never had any issues with my secondary.

    I have a lot of respect for you, but it seems to me that your experience with a bungied backup is different from mine. Care to elaborate about your experience?
     
    markmud likes this.
  2. MichaelMc

    MichaelMc Divemaster Candidate

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    I'm not a superhero diver, but a basic skill is reg recovery or reg swap. Presumably not for any game of throwing away and recovering ones reg, but for unexpected loss. I don't see how unexpectedly losing a reg, to current/kelp/surge/surf, is very different from having it taken. In terms of not suddenly breathing water.

    Absent a targeted take that scrapes the long hose down the neck, trapping the 22" hose, bungee and reg against the upper chest, and tightens the long hose against the light canister anchor. With a hand on the shoulder for 'stability' that also holds tension on the hose, keeping it all pined. Which could... happen.

    The under arm long hose take is interesting and something to think about, but seems low probability. And does not seem to apply as much to the non-long hose versions of necklaced primary donate.

    I think a complication in this discussion is that some agencies, BSAC, teach secondary take. So primary take becomes the discussion for them. But take is not the common plan. Just what could happen. I think a non-take trained buddy at my shoulder is more likely to grab my arm, squeeze several times, and signal for my reg.
     
    Bob DBF and Storker like this.
  3. Superlyte27

    Superlyte27 Cave Instructor

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    I still think you may be missing the point, or maybe I am. Blue Grotto is one of the most packed places full of newbie divers on the planet.... year round. You can do everything right. You and your buddy can agree on everything before hand. That won't change jack shitte if some dude you've never met before and didn't even know what hovering just above and behind you from grabbing your reg. Yes, I've seen it twice inside the span of a month. And once early in my diving career. If that's the reg they are going to take (without or without permission in a panic) so be it.
     
    Jay, chillyinCanada and johndiver999 like this.
  4. MichaelMc

    MichaelMc Divemaster Candidate

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    How is this different from
    "Dang <puts backup reg in> I lost my reg. Why did that happen?'
    Oh. The kelp, current, some OOA diver. Ok, that makes sense.

    Discounting the ninja OOA diver who wraps you in your long hose, vents your BC, and rides you air less to the bottom.
     
  5. Ayisha

    Ayisha DIR Practitioner

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    Why would a trained diver have their bungied backup way down at their chest? Even then, pulling their long hose down their neck wouldn't trap the backup reg. Think of the routing, which is behind the neck.

    Agree with you there. It is no different from an unexpected reg re and re, which most of us have dealt with at some time or another.
     
    AustinV likes this.
  6. MichaelMc

    MichaelMc Divemaster Candidate

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    The diver could have the necklace tight on the neck, I don't think it matters, may even make it harder on the ''donor', as it leaves less slack in the necklace once trapped.

    I think the moves would be an under the left arm, over the right shoulder hug from the left back:
    - left hand moves under their left arm pit, catching the long hose going up the chest and displacing it from the left to the right side of the backup necklaced regulator.
    - right hand goes over the right shoulder to grasp that long hose and keep it on the right side of the backup regulator, just for a moment. Just barely to the right is what you want.
    - left hand then grasps reg from mouth and draws down and to the left under the armpit and back, coming down on the upper chest or lower neck just to the left of the backup regulator.
    - back up reg should now be pinned below and down from where the two hoses cross on the chest/lower neck, pulling the slack out of the bungee.
    - long hose coming up the chest pins the reg on the right via the short hose and fitting going into the reg.
    - long hose going down the chest pins the first hose down and also the left side bungee.
    - reg is pined tight on both sides and down on the chest.
    - if the necklace is breakaway or pull out you may be able to do that and free the left side. Thus angling it up a bit to reach the mouth, or pulling the short hose to feed more length out from the upward long hose pinning it, making it easier to reach the mouth.
    - long hose looped under light canister prevents getting more slack in hose.

    Try it on land. I'm not sure how the BSAC diver was doing it, I'd be curious to hear. But that seems a plausible plan. Add thick wetsuits and decreased neck mobility to reach the trapped reg. Displacing the long hose to the right accidentally could... happen.

    Or you could trap the backup reg body directly under just the long hose coming down, but that is iffy, and easy to pop out.

    Like I said, a targeted take. And most are taught donate, so to ask, unless in extremis.
     
  7. Ayisha

    Ayisha DIR Practitioner

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    Those are quite reaching scenarios - except that I don't know whose long hose routes that way. The sides of the body you mention are incorrect.

    What you're describing in your last couple of posts sounds like someone intentionally trying to harm you. In that case, it could happen in any long or standard hose configuration and you'd better be trained in u/w hand-to-hand combat.
     
    bowlofpetunias likes this.
  8. MichaelMc

    MichaelMc Divemaster Candidate

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    The 'scenario' comes from several posts back of BSAC divers, who train for secondary take and do not like primary donate, describing that their club had a diver who when told by primary donate divers, 'take my primary' would go ahead and do so. And that of all that told them 'take my primary' none managed to free their secondary, and were eventually given the alternate of the OOA 'diver' and all converted back to the path of alternate take, forsaking the wrong path of primary donate/take. That is the premise of this scenario.

    Donor and OOA 'diver' are both facing the same way. My long hose goes from my lower right hip to left shoulder around neck to right of reg. Necklaced reg is under that. Ideally sitting a bit to the right of the long hose. The move is to take the upward going part of the long hose over to the right side of the necklaced reg, at the junction with the short hose, then draw the bit of the long hose going to the reg itself, downward over the left side of the necklaced reg. Sides are with both donor and 'OOA' diver facing forward, in the same direction.

    Again, I said it was a targeted take. So, really it is an attack. But it could... happen. Very unlikely. As many have drawn out. Not this targeted take, but take in general, outside BSAC.

    But BSAC does take, not donate. So if they were trying to argue against long hose primary donate/take, this was an argument made against it. Very improbable. As I mentioned, it is targeted. Based on the scenario up thread. By a BSAC diver, explaining how so many coming to BSAC with primary donate got shown the error of their ways. (ETA: CORRECTION: long hose, I believe.)

    ETA: The source of the scenario.
    I thought it was back to alternate donate/take, but it is back to 'normal length hoses'. This is where the scenario comes from. I'm not sure how they did it. But the above is a plausible sequence of steps, and could...... happen accidentally. Maybe....

    As I said targeted. But no jabs to the ribs involved. Just really unfortunate positioning of the hoses and a panicked diver pulling on the hose they are breathing. And a hand on the donating diver to stabilize , which just happens to prevent them unwinding the entrapment. And a positioning behind the donating diver.
     
  9. Edward3c

    Edward3c Instructor, Scuba

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    I must correct you.

    BSAC do allow and teach long hose configerations; just not round the neck, but bungeed to a cylinder.

    During training sessions, where rescue skills are being used, the secondary reg must be in the triangle.

    When just diving, any configuration can by used providing both have been trained on the configuration they are using and have adequately briefed their buddy on any special procedures. Many BSAC divers do use the hog loop configuration when out fun diving, no it isn’t banned.

    The hog loop configuration is an appropriate one for cave and other confined environments.
     
    MichaelMc likes this.
  10. chillyinCanada

    chillyinCanada Solo Diver Staff Member

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    But markmud, we're actually discussing someone being genuinely OOG, no matter the reason, no matter that the OOG may not be your buddy. That person is in an emergency situation and needs your gas NOW, whether you've been paying attention to them or not.

    That's not "rude", that's desperate.

    So far, I've only experienced 2 instances where I've observed a diver in trouble or about to be and I've been at the ready heading for the distressed diver with my alternate in my outstretched arm. Both times, my help wasn't ultimately needed.

    Other than that I've neither seen a situation nor heard about it back on any shore or boat that I've been on. My wish and hope is that it stays that way until I hang up my fins.

    In the meantime, I continue to mentally prepare to have someone take, either one of my seconds, if they need same. Sure, I'd prefer to be in a position to donate but I'm not counting on it.
     
    Diving Dubai and bowlofpetunias like this.

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