Why I didn't buy from my LDS

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Yes, your point is clear now and well taken.

Hope some dive shop owners, employees, instructors, read your story and take some of the points to heart so they can retain more of their OW customers.

theskull
 
Fairbanksdiver,

Hey!... Just wanted to say "Thanks for a great post!" I'm glad to see the two threads concerning LDS.

I had become spoiled with several other dive shops that I frequented up in the Puget Sound area. But now... I have found myself living in an area in which I am very displeased with the LDS. Many of the same problems that you spoke of with your LDS in Fairbanks, I am now dealing with. So... I now find myself taking my business up to "Eugene Skin Divers Supply". (I have always received very good service from them.)

Recently... I found a new LDS in my area, and initially... I was thrilled with their service. But, just within the past few weeks, I have been noticing that many of their prices are REALLY over inflated. When I brought this to their attention, they became somewhat indignant that I would even question their integrity... let alone their prices!

The bottom line is that I work way too hard to be throwing my money away on LDS that should not be in business in the first place. A LDS is definitely convenient... especially for "air"... but it would be purity of ignorance to support a bad LDS "at all costs". There are some dive shops that need to go out of business!

Prior to moving to the Puget Sound area, I lived here in Oregon... just outside of the Eugene / Springfield area, and I frequented two LDS. "Sea Sports" and the "Eugene Skin Divers Supply." I Don't know what ever happened to "Sea Sports" (My Favorite LDS) but I have always received outstanding service from "Eugene Skin Divers Supply."

Now that I'm back in Oregon... and even though its a 3 1/2 hour drive back up to the Eugene area.... I'm finding myself taking my business back to the reputable Dive Shops and abandoning my LDS.

So... If you show up in or around the Willamette Valley... you will be near some good shops! (If there are any bad shops around the Eugene area... I'm not aware of them. But if there are... I could never support them! Some dive shops were just meant to go out of business!)

Thanks again for your post!

Donnie
 
Well. I've posted a few posts about my LDS and so far I think they have treated me right with the exceptions of a few misunderstandings which were not a big deal. But just from reading alot of these posts and from my experience it seems that if you take your OW classes from a LDS, they seem to want to cattle brand you as their student, and you are now required to give them 100% loyalty and buy all of your future training and gear from them. If this does not happen you are considered a traitor and any hopes of recieving good service or even discounted rates on equipment are gone forever. Well truth be, I took the class from this LDS simply because it fit my schedule better than the others. I'm glad I did find this one though they are set up quite well. I did not however sign up thinking I was signing my allegiance to them. I just did not realize getting into this to what extent you are EXPECTED to maintain your loyalty to and make all of your purchases from them. Had I known that I might have researched who carried what and who had the most reasonable prices before I signed up for the class. For instance I just got my Zeagle Ranger LTD. although they are nice people at my LDS I think If I brought my ranger in and showed them, even though they do not carry Zeagle a few things would happen, I would get the cold shoulder and be told how you get what you pay for, and this is life saving equipment not to be trusted to internet sales, and they would probably feel insulted. Which this type of attitude makes me feel uncomforable and even a little guilty. Which I think is crazy. I've been in alot of different sports and in none of them did I find the atomosphere I have found in diving. Maybe its just because the internet is just now starting to affect their buiness, which was probably almost untouchable years ago. But most other buinesses have also had to put up with not just the internet but massive superstores taking their business. Just can't imagine my local hardware store telling me " well since you bought your hammer at Wal Mart I can still sell you nails but they are going to cost you twice as much as the guy who bought his hammer directly from me, and besides the hammer you bought at Wal Mart will probably end up killing you anyway, the handles snap off and you end up getting the claw stuck in your head, thats why their hammers are 75% cheaper than mine!!" Anyhow I've just never seen a industry that operates the way the Dive industry does. Not to mention the fact that all the manufacturers swear they don't sell to internet companies, yet the internet companies probably account for a minimum of 25% of their business. Hmmmmm how is it they get this equipment. I guess my feelings sum up to, the LDS's should treat you with respect regardless of were you buy your equipment, and always be friendly. If I walk in to my LDS and show them my new Apeks Black Pearl I bought on the Web for 300.00 less then they would sell it, they should smile and say "Thats a really nice Regulator, keep in mind when its due for service our shop is fully trained and can do a nice job for you". That will be the day!!!!
 
FairbanksDiver--I have been diving for a while and I also used to work in a hobby shop for the extra $. The hobby industry is also headed down a simular road as the LDSs. The industries is changing a little in how we do business with the shops. The Hobby shop I worked in had a hard time with the gusy checking things out in the shop to get the FEEL of the item and then going home and buying the thing online. In order for the LDSs to entice the "economically conscious" divers among us to continue shopping with them they will need to offer a comfortable area for us to shop WITHOUT pressure and offer prices that are closer to the On-Line prices, If not the majority of the new consumers WILL go to the cheapest seller to get their gear. Most dive shops that I have been to are relaxed and of great help if you ask but there are the few that try and sell you gear that they carry and all the shops I've seen have prices that are higher than that online. There must be a paradigm shift among LDS owners on the price structure that closely matches the online outlets. I know that this will probably upset shop owners and there is a difference in buying a Kia and a Benz BUT when you are being sold a Kia at the price of a Benz then it is the consumer that is at fault for laying the $ down. Gear will still need to be serviced and air will still need to be bought but the shops can't operate the way they are right now by just offering classes, gear repair and Air. So the friendly "hang out" where you can stop on by and see the local friends who dive and pick up the gear you might need. But a pushy shop will turn off most consumers.
WE are changing the industry a little everytime we go online for the lowest cost items we can find (why pay twice as much for something?). The LDSs that relied heavily on selling gear for revenues will have to change because of the internet. The LDSs will be more service and instructor oriented and were the internet shops are totally sales oriented with the online side of their operation.
Like the "Florida Conch Diver" attitude implies.....use an item untill it is no longer servicable.....instead of no longer IN STYLE! My long time dive partner used his BC even after the seam broke and the baldder would hang out and float behind the tank. That is an extreeme but he was able to safely dive with us and continue to enjoy the sport.
The bottom line is that we Dive to have fun not support the LDSs. They must provide a service for us as well as competative prices to keep most people coming in for gear.

Disclaimer......JMHO!!!!!! I know that many will not see it this way but this is how the other divers can afford the sport!!!!!
 
Donnie-

When I'm in Oregon, I'm about 40 minutes away from Eugene Skin Divers. I stopped by there this past summer, and it seemed like a good dive shop.

I'm sure I'll go back next time I'm down there and spend some more time looking around. Was kinda in a hurry last time...

-B.
 
DavidHickey:
. . . If I walk in to my LDS and show them my new Apeks Black Pearl I bought on the Web for 300.00 less then they would sell it, they should smile and say "Thats a really nice Regulator, keep in mind when its due for service our shop is fully trained and can do a nice job for you". That will be the day!!!!

At least they would get the service job - which they will also start losing to the internet and DIY'ers if they don't at least accept that business opportunity. Foolish to say "because you bought 10% of your gear on the internet we won't take your cash for the remaining 90%" (or even the other way around - some is better than none)

Of course my LDS employees look at my reg and go "what brand?" - it's a Kirby Morgan . . . oh well - it's cheaper to replace than to get it serviced anyway - lol

Aloha, Tim
 
I appologize in advance for any portions of this posting that sound *****y.

The diving industry like any others has the range of excellent, mediocre, and down right $hitty shops/instructors etc. The reason that we push shopping your LDS so much is because of the things that your LDS can provide that the internet can not. A lot of these things your LDS provides at no cost, when all of the LDSs go out of business becuase of constantly being undersold by the internet, the average diver will finally realize the value of these services and by this time it will be too late.

Fairbanks tells a story that admittedly is more common than most of us would like to see. These LDS horror stories tend to come out of places where there is little competition from other LDS. In locations where there is a lot of competition these crappy LDS tend to go away on their own. Most of the agencies now require dry suits to be used in confined water prior to using them in open water. They also should not have been using an AOW student as a victim in a rescue class-I don't think any of the agencies specifially prohibit this, but common sense tells you it is stupid. Most instructors will also agree that BOW students shouldn't be imediatly pushed into an AOW class. Also to address the shop only carrying DUI drysuits which yes are very expensive, but lets face it they are the best IMO. DUI often has utilized an exclusivity clause in dealer agreements, where a dealer agrees to only carry DUI dry suits in exchange for being an authorized DUI dealer.

Don't just shop the internet because you can buy gear a little cheaper, I know some of you have mentioned major price descrepencies. Dive shops should be selling gear at MSRP or close to it. MSRP in the diving industry and just about everyother industry is about a 100% mark up over dealer cost (myself and family members have worked for or owned businesses in jewelery, office supplies, furniture, and hardware). This mark up is necessary to cover the costs of shipping, employee salaries, property leasing, advertising, utilities, they have a huge amount of money tied up in inventory, not to mention liability insurance which for a decent sized shop that teaches classes, fills tanks, and runs trips could easily be upwards of $10,000 a year and lets face it they need to make a profit. The internet minimizes a lot of these costs, they can function with one guy working out of his garage a couple hours a week, they pass the shipping costs on to the consumer(in most cases, and typically these are inflated with "handling" charges-that $5 pays jim-bob the employee to get up out of the computer chair walk over to the shelf that has the B.C. you want, stick it in a box, slap a label on it and toss it in the pile for UPS).

i can't tell you the number of times that someone has come into the LDS I work for and tried on wetsuits, asked me a thousand questions about which thickness of wetsuit to get, finds one that fits perfectly, then says "thanks I think I can get it at $&#^.com for a lot less". Of course you can get it a lot less. Your .com didn't have a knowledgable person working with you for 3 hours that they have to pay, they didn't have to provide you with a fitting room for you to try on your suit...hell you wouldn't have known that the zipper goes in the back if you depended on the internet. They didn't have a dish of candy sitting on their counter for you to scarf down while you debated which suit to get, they didn't have to vacuum up all the dirt that you tracked on to the carpeting, and they didn't have to carry out the trash from your McDonald's extra value meal that you threw away in the store. They didn't have to pay for the toilet paper, (and lets hope soap and paper towel) you used when you had to "use the restroom" during your 3 hour stay....yep this is the *****y part I warned about earlier!

Many internet sites have practices that makes their warranty invalid. If you are buying SCUBAPRO gear for example this can be a lot of money in the long run as SCUBAPRO does free parts if you get your regs serviced every year. At $30-50 per reg each year for parts even a discount of $150 is gone in 3-5 years. My LDS also provides a discount for labor on annual reg service if the items were bought from us, this saves you about another $10 per year. We also do a lot of "no cost" repairs-a little silicone greese, re-gluing kneepads to wetsuits etc.

Not to mention, you decide to switch from using an octo to an integrated air source... where are you going to find a plug for that extra hole? Good luck finding (and getting) an o-ring, any other parts for your regulator the day before you leave on a dive trip.

Add into this that most BOW SCUBA classes are opporated at a loss if you look only at the tuition cost vs the expenses associated with the pool, instructor, and wear and tear on our rental gear. This loss is alleviated if the students purchase their Masks, fins, and snorkle from the LDS. You buy your BC, reg and gauges from us, and we actually discount the price of the class from your gear purchase.

The issues of shop loyalty I have also witnessed in other industries, to an even worse extent than I have seen in diving. I recently purchased a new car, and was chewed out over the phone by a sales guy for buying a car from another dealer after looking on his lot.
In diving however I almost see it as a positive thing (being loyal to a shop, not getting harrassed for stepping foot in another shop). When I started diving I was very enthusiastic about the sport, but I was a poor college student. My LDS recognized this and the instructors at the shop helped me make good decisions about the gear that I was purchasing, I actually still use the BC that I purchased shortly after my BOW course. They helped me out by getting me into the local quarry free, i'd help out with events at the quarry and in exchange would get in free, and would get free tanks and air. It is these touches that I would not have gotten from the internet, I would have gone cheap and bought a computer that didn't do nitrox then would have had to buy another one a couple years later, I would have bout a bc that wasn't weight integrated, then wanted to buy a new one.

lets change the LDS quote to "support a good local dive shop"
 
Thanks for all the responses to this post! Just a couple I wanted to comment on...

From polly...
They also should not have been using an AOW student as a victim in a rescue class-I don't think any of the agencies specifially prohibit this, but common sense tells you it is stupid.
I didn't realize that lying face down in 15' of water and waiting for someone to come bring you off the bottom was so dangerous... or playing an unconscious/non-breathing diver at the surface... all frought with peril I guess.

The potential "Safety concerns" of this practice was not what was making me angry... what chapped my hide was that I paid nearly $800 for a combination AOW class / Dive Trip, and only received 3-4 hours of diving/instruction that relates to what I thought I had paid for. I spent between 8-12 hours assisting with other classes, or waiting for my instructor to come back in from teaching a different class. There were no alternate activity/diving options available for these dead time slots.

Also.. I don't care about the DUI suit bit. They can carry whatever they want. What I do care about is being pressured to buy a $2500 drysuit before I even own any basic gear. Especially when 90% of the conversations with the shop revolve around selling me stuff.

From polly...
(Long rant about internet merchants)
I won't use my LDS as a fitting room for purchases I intend to buy online. I haven't in the past, and don't intend to in the future.

90% of your complaints against internet dive shops have been addressed by Larry of Scubatoys. His shop shares the same operating costs that yours does, and yet, he's able to run a highly profitable dive shop (with revenues many times over the average LDS). Why? Because he's embraced technology and the internet, and isn't scared to make use of it. I haven't heard a single one of his web customers complain about the quality of his customer service or support. Heck, I'd like to... just to prove that he's human... I'm highly suspicious that he's an alien sent from planet Xargthron, where their dive industry has evolved far beyond the understanding of most LDS owners.

I don't have a problem with supporting a LDS... but I'm not going to help them make their rent payment if they won't treat me like a human being. They deserve to go out of business if they insist on treating their customers like garbage.

Realistically, this rubbish about the LDS going out of business, and fills no longer being available, and yadda yadda yadda... is just that- rubbish. If there's a demand in the area for a dive shop, a new one will pop up as soon as the old goes under. And hopefully they'll learn from the mistakes that were made in the past.

Doesn't that provide some motivation for the shop employees to provide the best service possible? Shouldn't there be a realistic fear that the shop can fail if they don't provide an atmosphere that encourages customers to do business with them?

-B.
 
fairbanksdiver:
Thanks for all the responses to this post! Just a couple I wanted to comment on...

Also.. I don't care about the DUI suit bit. They can carry whatever they want. What I do care about is being pressured to buy a $2500 drysuit before I even own any basic gear.

Shouldn't there be a realistic fear that the shop can fail if they don't provide an atmosphere that encourages customers to do business with them?

-B.

That's what kills me about many LDS'. Push..push...push gear to new OW divers but don't actually HELP THEM become better divers by selling them, or teaching them, to dive in gear they want or need! I was told my SP Jetfins were "baby fins" and had split fins pushed on me I don't know how many times. But then during the dive shop Xmas party the owner actually admitted to me he would never get rid of his Jet type fins and we went on to talk about the pluses and minuses of both types of fins! Then why on earth when I was learning did they not offer to sell me some Jet fins??? 5% of something is better than 25% of NOTHING! That's what they got, NOTHING, I bought jets from LP! It's because they make a killing on pushing overpriced split fins. I was told a backplate and wing would just about kill me, yet at the time they had some OMS gear, BP/W etc. in the corner. Nope, gave the usual voodoo BS and lost the sale. Glad I went the route I did anyway. Didn't buy the overpriced SP stab jacket. And when I went in to have my Apeks reg serviced I got a STUPID, CONDESCENDING note with it basically saying "how do you like doing CESA'S ???" Huh? My IP was up around 300 psi. and I was in danger of having a hose burst. Duh!!!!!! During a dive the week before my Rescue classes my 1st stage bit the dust and my regs kept freeflowing on the surface BEFORE my dives, never dove them. A problem with the HP seat or adjustment or something. Anyway, I TOOK it into service and PAID them to fix them (a $140.00 by the way for 3 stages). So fix it and shut up!!!!! They *****ed me out about sand in the internals, they were in BAD shape, the CESA thing, oh, and NEVER let INCOMPETANTS work on the internals! They were CONVINCED I tried to work on them myself and tried to SCARE me into service!!! The reason they came up with this conclusion is that I mentioned to one of the guys that I picked up some rebuild kits on the net and planned on learning to do rebuilds. Hey, if I rebuilt them and screwed it up you can bet I would not run to them to bail me out, I would just rip 'em back apart and get it right. Anyway, I now have all the tools I need from Peterbuilt and plenty of rebuild kits. More dive industry VOODOO crap brought on by the manufacturer forcing the LDS to sell the way they do. Overpriced gear to new OW students. Doesn't anyone actually CARE about TEACHING divers to DIVE???? To HELP them make rational decisions about buying what THEY, THE DIVER, wants to buy?? Telling old wives tales and spewing out false BS about gear and diving is disingenuous to say the least. The latest was during "my" drysuit course. As the guy was teaching the class he hit on weight integrated BCD's and how important they are to drysuit diving. Another industry selling technique brought on by the training agencies and the manufacturers. This particular manufacturer of very expensive drysuits also makes weight integrated BCD's. :) Go figure....But what got me was when the instructor got on me in front of 2 other students about how I like to "BRAG" about diving with very little ditchable weight. And how many "tech" and "cave" divers don't know how "heavy" they really are! What a CROCK! Just another dig on my backplate and wing in front of the other students that they want to brainwash into buying BCD's, weight harnesses etc.! My "rig" does not conform to there P***, D** and LDS sales strategy I guess!
So let me guess, if I BUY the LDS BCD and weight harness, throw 28# of lead in it and destroy my trim I'll be a "better" and "safer" diver???? Give me a break! TEACH people to DIVE, TEACH them TRIM and concepts on diving NEUTRAL, TEACH them the pluses and minuses of ditchable/non-ditchable weight, TEACH them not to be SCARED of the INTERNALS of their REGS, teach and be helpfull and the BUSINESS will follow. Once a customer finds out you LIED to them they will NEVER come back!
 
I did go back this past weekend... and had mixed results.

The friend that went with me had some problems... he was there to pick up his c-card, and was told about 2 months ago that it would be ready in 3 weeks. This weekend, it wasn't ready, and they hadn't called him to tell him there was a problem. Turns out they had lost his pictures, and needed him to sign a couple forms... part of the responsibility for this was his... but the lack of communication was the bigger problem. He'll finally have his card on Monday (they say).

I wanted a new pair of fins, and was going to make an offer on a pair of Jet Fins that they've had on the shelf for several years. When I mentioned that was what I wanted, I was told that they're not a good fin at all, and I would be disappointed. I insisted that I wanted the Jets, but felt like I was talking to a brick wall. The conversation went something like this...

"These are a proven design, used for the last 30 years by thousands of divers"

"Yeah, but the buckles are a real hassle" - Dive shop employee #6

"So you replace them with spring straps"

"[rant that I quit listening to]" - Dive shop employee #6

Funny... those buckles on the Blades II are even worse... that handsfree release is trouble waiting to happen.

I kind of needed a pair of fins, so I let them sell me a pair of Aqualung Blades II (marked $139 on the floor, $128 in the computer, and I paid $108... I don't understand dive shop math)

I tried them in the pool, and hated them. I'm in pretty good shape, but they were murder on my calf muscles. Much worse then the Tusa Imprex fins I was looking to replace. My friend had a pair of Jet fins, which I tried in the pool and LOVED. The big problem I noticed with the blades was the amount of force it took to move them through the water... compared to the Jets, it (Subjectively), seemed to require 2-3 times as much force.

So... feeling completely spineless, and embarassed with myself for backing down at the LDS in the first place, when we went to return the gear, I returned the fins.

"I don't like these fins... they're no good"

"What's wrong with them?" - Lds employee #6

"They're too long... and way too stiff"

"Well... the ones you'll probably like are a little more expensive" - Lds employee #6

"If you say split fins, I'm leaving"

"Well... what do you want?" - Lds employee #6

"The Jet Fins I said I wanted last night"

[shrugging, sighing] "Okay, I'll go get them"

So... at least that was painless. I returned them for store credit, and picked up the Jet fins (the IDI clones), for $45 (probably the fairest purchase ever made at that LDS) They didn't seem thrilled about it, but were willing to do it without complaining.

I don't know what I'm going to use my $68 store credit on...

However, the big kudos to the LDS is that Dive Shop Employee #6 (who I know from outside the diveshop... good friend's ex GF) is going to meet with me on her own time to finish my AOW paperwork so I can get the c-card. I'm still miffed at her for not listening to me about the fins... but it's very cool that she's doing this.

Some random observations from the 2 hours I spent at the shop:

Light Cannon prices. I paid $200 for mine there a year ago. The new price is $280. Replacement bulbs are $100. Scary.

According to them... Spare Air is an acceptable alternate air source for ice diving! Right! That's almost laughable. Spare Air as an alternate air source... in an overhead environment. If I take the ice diving class... I'm buying a pony bottle.

Dive shop employee #6... who is supporting this whole Jet Fins suck/Frog kick useless/Spare Air is great alternate air source/take every PADI class possible (cuz you need them all!)... blah blah blah mentality... wants to dive the Doria.... For some reason... I'm thinking all of the PADI Wreck/Drift/Suicide diving specialities in the world just aren't going to make that possible. I'm forseeing an attitude adjustment in the future.

-B.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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