Wing vs. Jacket

[MauiScubaSteve]

since im a newbie I would appreciate some help from the professionals

I personally think the OP will be fine in the rig he decided on, but I'm not sure the "help from the professionals" he was looking for was "help from professional BP/W retailers and manufacturers."

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Most divers considering a BP&W are doing so for more streamlining, easier venting etc.

As a BP/W Manufacturer, can you link us to any studies measuring the coefficient of drag and venting ease of the 3 popular modern BC styles?

Since the majority of the leading edge of the Vest bladder is drafting in the "shadow of the shoulders/arms and the entire leading edge of the BP/W bladder is not drafting, what makes you think a BP/W is more streamlined?

Since the Vest bladder is closer to the body than the BP/W bladder wouldn't the amount of body position change from good diving trim to venting body position be less with a Vest vs a BP/W?

Since the kidney dump of a Vest BC is always right next to the body, wouldn't it be easier to reach than the butt dump of a wing, considering that the air you are trying to release is causing the butt dump to be farther away from the body than the Vest's kidney dump?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

The long and short of it is there are no "Cons" to a BP&W.

Nice, but perhaps a little biased.

Since you only sell Oceanic and Mares Vest BC's I think it's possible that some of the BP/W's you sell are better designed than all the Vest's you sell.

And maybe the competition is so fierce for the faster moving Vest BC's that the margin is better for the few BP/W's sold.

For Wayne, there are no Con's to a BP/W. For me, only a Con would say anything has no Con's.

 

[PfcAJ]

As a BP/W Manufacturer, can you link us to any studies measuring the coefficient of drag and venting ease of the 3 popular modern BC styles?

Since the majority of the leading edge of the Vest bladder is drafting in the "shadow of the shoulders/arms and the entire leading edge of the BP/W bladder is not drafting, what makes you think a BP/W is more streamlined?

Since the Vest bladder is closer to the body than the BP/W bladder wouldn't the amount of body position change from good diving trim to venting body position be less with a Vest vs a BP/W?

Since the kidney dump of a Vest BC is always right next to the body, wouldn't it be easier to reach than the butt dump of a wing, considering that the air you are trying to release is causing the butt dump to be farther away from the body than the Vest's kidney dump?

Heeeeeeere we go again.

A study? seriously? We can't even get a good study on oxygen tolerance, and you want on on BC designs? Start with something that matters.

The "majority" you speak of isn't a majority. I have dived more than one jacket bc (which is way more than the amount of bp/wings you have) and every single one of them had more crap below my arms (when held to my side) than any wing does behind me. Straps, buckles, cumberbunds, pockets, chest straps, clips, and associated nonsense. THAT, my friend, is why jackets are less streamlined and more cluttered than a simple harness and wing with smooth lines. The superlong inflater hose is a PITA to vent, and the kidney dump is often on the right side, which sucks for scootering, and anything on the left side thats not up high and away from your body would get blocked by stages (another thing that a bp can do easily but not a jacket...hmm...)

Good diving trim and venting position is the same for me. There is nothing to change when I'm diving a backplate, I don't need to come out of trim to adjust my buoyancy... Do you?

This isn't rocket surgery and I don't need a PhD in fluid dynamics to figure it out. I can't think of a "study" that shows a corvette is more streamlined than a semi-truck, either, but there isn't much sense in arguing it.

It seems to me than you can do all kinds of dives with a backplate (shallow reef to 300' deep cave, wreck, ice, etc), unlike a jacket.

What were the advantages of a jacket again? Oh yeah...

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I tried a backplate/wing set-up last weekend. I found that my trim was terrible...I was very "head down" and kept rolling over on to one side. I know I can move the tank to deal with the "head down" attitude but I'm at a loss as to why I couldn't control the "rolling".

At the time I thought that perhaps with all my weight in the back plate there would be a natural tendency to "turtle" but my son (and the other divers) were fine.

Is it possible that the "loaner" just wasn't fitting me properly...the straps did seem a wee bit loose? It was a sinlge tank set-up and the diver who loaned me the rig said it is much easier to use a BP/wing with doubles.

Bob (Toronto)

Was the wing a donut shape with the ability to allow air to circulate 360 degrees or was it U-shaped. I have been using U-shaped wing for a while now and I really don't like it. It traps air in one side when you roll to look to the side and most of all I dislike it because it is VERY noisy. As I roll from side to side, just a little even, the small amount of air gurgles loadly back an forth behind my neck. I swear it is scaring the fish i am trying to spear.

It is particularly troublesome when I am stalking a fish, holding my breath trying to be completely silent and then the slightest roll causes the guggling sound. I'm diving now in a thin suit, with a steel tank and zero lead, so there is little air in the wing, even at depth.

Anybody want to buy a like new gollum Wing? The thing is built extremely well and seems very rugged, but I don't need to play with it more to decide it is not optimum. It comes with a like new AL plate and harness..


I also have another BP/W with the circular donut shape and like it much better, but if I am not carrying a stage bottle, I prefer a regular BC over a BP/W. It never gave me any big advantage in trim and the BP/w is less comfortable on the surface.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I can't think of a "study" that shows a corvette is more streamlined than a semi-truck, either, but there isn't much sense in arguing it.

The Cd of something is a measurement. Most/all modern autos/trucks have had their Cd's measured.

If I type "coefficient of drag of a semi truck" into yahoo search, the second hit is;

Drag Coefficient

Tractor Trailed Truck Cd=0.96

The seventh hit is;

Automobile drag coefficient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cd=0.29 Chevrolet Corvette 2005

In both quotes I added the "Cd="

The fact that you are not able to come up with the Cd measurements of your examples is consistent with the research and theoretical science abilities of the most vocal BP/W proponents, IMHO.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

The superlong inflater hose is a PITA to vent, and the kidney dump is often on the right side, which sucks for scootering, and anything on the left side thats not up high and away from your body would get blocked by stages (another thing that a bp can do easily but not a jacket...hmm...)

Considering that the OP is just recently AOW, I definitely see your point that he needs to worry about blocking by stages!

As far as scootering goes, I can hold and easily read/monitor any of my left hand held gauges/computer/compass while venting the kidney dump with my right hand; seems properly designed to me.

​

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Good diving trim and venting position is the same for me. There is nothing to change when I'm diving a backplate, I don't need to come out of trim to adjust my buoyancy... Do you?

Where are a beginning diver's arms when they are in their good diving trim body position? Where are those same arms when they are venting? Even when I make the very minimal body position change of reaching back to my very handy kidney dump, there is a body position change from my good dive trim body position. This topic kind of goes back to my theoretical science theory.

 

[PfcAJ]

See how people TEST things that are important for a marketing/ business planning perspective? There is no drive to test things like that in the scuba industry. What you cited was individual tests, not something directly comparing the two. YOU made the connection all by yourself. Its just as easy to look at a jacket BC (with short/fat aircells, straps, buckles, foam padding, inherent buoyancy, etc) and determine which one is better. I don't need a study, number, or a paper to figure that out. I never looked up the drag coefficients (something I am familiar with) because I don't need to. Its obvious. Anyone with any sense at all can figure it out by just observing.

Any one with any sense wouldn't dive a scooter like that for anything besides a shallow reef dive. Its a great way for the prop to eat gear/line. I can tell you've never been on a scooter dependent dive before.

I still don't get your "body position" thing. I vent while horizontal, I ascend while horizontal and I ascend while horizontal. What do you do and WHY?

So he just completed AOW? So what? I wish I didn't buy a jacket BC when I finished AOW, it was wasted money when I could have bought something that works everywhere.

Once again, you've NEVER dove a wing, so what do you really know? By your posts, the answer is pretty clear: Nothing.

 

[Wayne at DiveSeekers]

Nice, but perhaps a little biased.

Since you only sell Oceanic and Mares Vest BC's I think it's possible that some of the BP/W's you sell are better designed than all the Vest's you sell.

And maybe the competition is so fierce for the faster moving Vest BC's that the margin is better for the few BP/W's sold.

For Wayne, there are no Con's to a BP/W. For me, only a Con would say anything has no Con's.

I am actually a dealer for more than just Oceanic and Mares. We also are dealers for ScubaPro, Sherwood and many others. We have a pool at our shop and the majority of our customers are in BP&W's and mainly because once they try them out in the pool or at a Demo Event, they fall in love with them. If they are not in a BP&W then the next popular choice in order is

1. DiveRite Transpac
2. DiveRite Travelpac
3. ScubaPro Knighthawk/Ladyhawk
4. ScubaPro Litehawk

I haven't sold a Jacket Style BC "in our store" in 4 years and the last one ordered for stock in our store was 6 years ago with the last one taking 2 years to sell (I hope I didn't loose you there). The only jacket style BC's that we sell are "On-Line". With us letting divers "try before they buy", I don't feel that my comments are "biased" at all, it is based on facts of what goes on in our shop.