A Question that Really Happened

[daniel f aleman]

Well, I ain't a lawyer, so I'll leave the legaleese to another. I'll say this, as a longtime cave diver: given the scene as described in the first post, I abort the dive, wait above until all divers surface, and report what I witnessed to the rangers. That's it.

 

[Scuba-Jay]

Well, I ain't a lawyer, so I'll leave the legaleese to another. I'll say this, as a longtime cave diver: given the scene as described in the first post, I abort the dive, wait above until all divers surface, and report what I witnessed to the rangers. That's it.

AMEN....

 

[Cacia]

how do you ensure they don't go in somewhere else? A: You can't.

you are right. We have three wrecks here, all around 100 to 127..they are always divers around. So..if we want to enter, we have to size up the situation. We have to think it through..that the environment in which we enter can change.

But, the wrecks are dived everyday..and we don't not do it because some bullies could lock us in or follow us in. heck...they DO follow us in, all the time.
That's why the people that know what they are doing sorta boss the others around. It is a situation that calls to be managed.

I have never left the wrecks because of it...but I do sum it up before going in.

Look...you boys with the rangers and the management..use em. So...does this site have a sign in, a gate?

see..we don't have that.

but I can imagine that kind of shinanigans happening in cave. Bad news!!

or sharks following you into a cave. (you shouldn't have been in there with him)

 

[Dive-aholic]

...I doubt it. Unless this is in bubba land...

It's not too far...

oh yea. TriMix.

It's a small system. Side mount required beyond the gate. Depths do get to the 150' range, but nothing too bad.

hey..if you have "management", do that. I have never dived anywhere that had management. Those Florida caves I went in with my dad, did not have management then. or gates for that matter, that I recall.

Vortex Spring is a privately owned, commercially run operation that charges $32/diver just to get access to the water. They do have management.

Whatever you do DO NOT unlock that gate - liability probably starts there...

It depends on what the release forms they signed at the office state. I don't dive sidemount yet, so I haven't been in this system. But if the release form doesn't state not to unlock the gate if there are other divers near by, then the liability starts at the office. I'm sure the release forms signed by the OW divers state not to go past the gate when it's open, so the OW divers are ultimately responsible for their own actions.

 

[Cacia]

Oh it looks nice.

Not too far from Destin?

Well..it looks like an amusement park of sorts...basketball..all kinds of activities.
If they have a lot of kids, they might need an underwater "cop"? It really is a unique situation. Is Ginnie Springs and Ocala..uh Crystal River all like that now?

 

[dbulmer]

Tom,
I have not met many cave divers but the ones I have met were always concerned with preserving the cave and minimising risk so the answer is abort the dive. The yahoos have already silted up the environment once - to run the risk of them doing it in the cave would be insanity - ie they have no finning technique, have already demonstrated they are clueless, will ruin the dive for the cavers exposing them to unnecessary risk and probably would cause damage to the cave.

 

[Tom Smedley]

The cave at Vortex presents a very different problem than a normal cave. One has already penetrated about 250 feet and is at a depth of 108 feet before reaching the gate. There is a permanent line by way of a plastic pipe that goes along the bottom and the tunnel is lighted by rope lights affixed to the ceiling. The presence of untrained or poorly trained divers is quite evident by the amount of graffiti scratched into the limestone walls. There is a large room with rope lights crisscrossing the ceiling and an inverted talk box. The gate is just shy of the first restriction – about 24 inches of clearance. One must position a gap reel between the permanent line outside the gate and the one past the restriction. The bottom of the restriction is 117 feet and the tunnel becomes gradually shallower to the second restriction about 500 feet into the tunnel.

On a normal cave dive there is no gate – I wouldn’t feel as responsible for someone who is not trained or equipped if they entered the cave zone. However, these folks at Vortex have already penetrated past the cave zone and I am – in effect – opening the gate for them to go further. Another horror would be that if they did go past the gate and I didn’t see them on the way out I might lock them in. Cave divers know to place their own gap reel to indicate that “I’m in here.”

I ran into a similar situation at Morrison Spring. There were a group of obviously new divers hanging onto the ledge at the bottom of the chimney and peering into the cave with small flashlights. When we went past them and illuminated the room with HIDs some of them followed us in. We immediately showed them the way out.

I don’t like the concept of scuba police and someone else’s accident may be none of my business. However, accidents and the threat of such are responsible for closing systems to divers for fear of liability.

Thanks for all the thoughts on my post – I enjoy hearing what others think. Sorry if my question sounded stupid.

 

[The Kraken]

Unlock the gate, enter and then lock the gate behind ya . . . cause I'm sure one of the cave divers has a redundant key !!!!

Just kidding !!! I don need no steenkin cave !!!!

No caves for me!

the K-aveless

 

[Gil57usa]

m sorry but this is silly. What exactly do you want the solo diver to do at the gate? pull out his diving knife and guard the enterence? Abort the dive, report the idiots to the management or call local authorities. Would you like to be the guy whos put in charge of fending off a bunch of idiots, underwater at the enterence to a cave???

To go a little farther .....Would you like to be the PSD that fills the body bags with untrained inexperienced divers?

 

[MikeFerrara]

I've spent a lot of time at Vortex and, especially on the weekend, the cave is FULL of OW divers who don't belong there.

As has been pointed out, the gate is about 300 ft in and at a depth of about 105 ft.

Either because the OW divers won't stay out or because the management wants them to go in, they have strung permenant lights and even installed a breathing bell back there. Lots of people have died in that cave and people still don't get it.

Still, every OW diver knows they aren't trained to be there. Yet, in the industry, we have the idea of "the OW diver safe cavern"...places like Ginnie Springs, Blue Grotto and Devils throat in cozumel.

When we go in there, we close the gate behind us and make it look locked. Once passed the gate there is a low spot (sort of a restriction) and depending on water levels it can be fairly high flow. There is no permenant line at this point. I pass this section without a line so, once through the gate, they'd be looking at a high flow restriction with no line. How stupid are these people? Not only that but they're already at 105 ft and 300 ft in. Once past the gate, it mostly just gets deeper. Niether their gas or their no-stop time is going to last long. If they can't see this, what can I do for them?

Sorry but I'd continue my dive. I might show them a wet note suggesting that they leave but the cave is fixed up so nice with permenant light and breathing bells. Do you think they would listen to me? I might even show them my wet note that says "I'll be back for your gear." A little friendly advice is about all I have the right to offer and I don't have any authority over anyone else.

All that out of the way, it isn't much of a cave dive and I wouldn't pay $30 (or whatever it is) to be there in the first place. I've dived it quit a bit but I never paid to dive there.