A somewhat sad conversation last night

[Scott]

I am not DIR but I have a general interest in any aspect of diving that would lend me to be a better diver or instructor.
Five years ago, I would have responded to anything DIR as a "cult". This was soley based on a lone experience with a DIR diver and some general observations on a boat trip. Possibly one of the old schoolers.
A few years later I had another opportunity to interact again with a DIR diver. There was an improvement in attitude for both of us. I had more knowledge of DIR phylosophy and this diver was a little more open than my previous encounter.
Within the last year I have had two more opportunities to talk with DIR divers. Both instances have been informative and enjoyable.

While first impression are important it is also important to become knowledgable about a subject before passing judgement, regardless of wether you're discussing DIR or the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow.

 

[matts1w]

The external issue is folks who don't understand it and like to demand that since everything revolves around their own worldview that GUE should change to suit them. Which will never happen.

My fault; I was not clear. I did not mean to imply that the GUE/DIR system should change its principles. I do not think that for a second.The OP solicited comments after reflecting it is "... incredibly sad that (a diver) had gotten such a bad impression of DIR people from this board.." when the reality is there are a number of fun and kind DIR divers (Which there are). My point is maybe after ten years of feeling sad and/or misunderstood it is time to change the way you (Not you or the OP specifically) talk to people on SB.

 

[Rogersea]

In general I find folks who are associated with DIR including folks having conversations on the board a bit narrow minded and often times condescending.

Having said that if DIR works for anyones given situation and it gives you more confidence to stay active in the sport then use it, please just dont be so "preachy"....

Before I get flamed..... I do understand DIR, its evolution and its applicability.... I am familiar with fundies and....

I cant believe this is how I used my 700th post.

Cheers,

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob, if you think it is just a marketing term and there is no implied "doing it wrong" then I need a hit of what you're smoking.

... then let me just point out, Ron, that the only person in this entire thread who has so far attempted to take it to a personal level by insulting someone they disagreed with is a non-DIR diver ... you.

So who is more deserving of stereotyping ???

Thankfully, here where I live, there is very little of this attitude ... by either the DIR or non-DIR community. And that which exists is easily ignored. In fact, our local GUE instructor is also a PADI instructor for the largest scuba chain store in our area ... and the store he works for sells both Zeagle and Halcyon ... as well as many other popular brands.

You complain that you cannot take Fundies in a Zeagle Ranger, ignoring the rather valid reasons why. That's your choice, but it begs the question why you would want to. As you and others continually point out, there are other ways you can obtain the skills to become a good diver. I teach for NAUI. I can and do teach those skills. One of my recent students was wearing a Zeagle Ranger, and did just fine.

DIR is one option for those who choose to dive that way. If you wish to stereotype those people, and to hold it against them ... or insult people like me who aren't DIR but who accept that their choices are valid ... then that says way more about you than it does about them.

I have the gear to fit the DIR lifestyle

... there is no DIR lifestyle ... there's a scuba diving lifestyle, and DIR is just one way to enjoy it. And that's really rather the point, Ron. You can either choose to go out and enjoy yourself, share your excitement about scuba with those who are also excited by it ... or you can choose "camps" comprised of your differences. That's really up to the individual, and has nothing whatsoever to do with your training or equipment choices.

It's all about attitude. I've never understood people who choose to take a negative attitude about something that we all do for fun, or the people who have chosen to do it a little bit differently than they have.

I was involved with the whole DIR set of problems we as mods had and it was not fun. We basically ended walling the DIR zealots off and that worked. It is still that way to this day. They have opt in areas and if you want to participate there you better be DIR. There is no tolerance for split fins or jacket BC's.

The creation of the DIR forum predates you as a moderator. I know this ... because I was a mod back then, was involved in the discussions ... in fact, at the time I thought it wasn't a good idea ... and you were not a part of those.

Frankly, Ron, you and a handful of other people who share your attitude are the main reason why the board admins felt that such a forum was necessary. It remains a problem today because ... even with a separate forum ... a few people such as yourself simply cannot allow a DIR discussion to take place ... even if it's just some DIR curious person asking a question ... without interjecting your negativity into the conversation. The opt-in forum was created as a place where people who have trained as DIR, and who have questions for similarly trained people, can go discuss those questions without having to fend off people such as yourself who just can't allow them to otherwise have that conversation without injecting your objections to their right to do so.

In other words, you did help create the "walls" you speak of ... not as a mod, but as someone who couldn't allow people to talk about DIR without having to listen to your complaints about what's wrong with it.

Do you also have objections to the solo forum? It exists for pretty much the same reasons ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added April 13th, 2012 at 03:44 AM ----------

My fault; I was not clear. I did not mean to imply that the GUE/DIR system should change its principles. I do not think that for a second.The OP solicited comments after reflecting it is "... incredibly sad that (a diver) had gotten such a bad impression of DIR people from this board.." when the reality is there are a number of fun and kind DIR divers (Which there are). My point is maybe after ten years of feeling sad and/or misunderstood it is time to change the way you (Not you or the OP specifically) talk to people on SB.

... I don't see any DIR folks in this or any other conversation saying "if you don't agree with me, then I want some of what you're smoking."

I do see someone who is not DIR ... and a memember of SB staff ... making that comment.

Do you hold him to the same behavioral expectations?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Rhone Man]

Lynne, I can empathise with your new friend. I certainly used to have a very negative impression of DIR before I met a number of DIR practitioners. I still find parts of the DIR philosophy quirky, but at the risk of quoting George W. Bush (!), I find there is more that unites us (love of diving) than divides us.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I was involved with the whole DIR set of problems we as mods had and it was not fun. We basically ended walling the DIR zealots off and that worked.

I want to get back to this comment for a moment, just to set the record straight. The DIR forum was created in December 2003 ... nine months before you even joined the board, much less became a moderator. The creation of the board had nothing to do with a DIR set of problems. The idea was "born" from a thread that was started in 2002 titled "DIR: Hell Spawn or God's Gift" ... which proved to be rather popular among both DIR and non-DIR participants. As time went on, other threads that various members created were combined with it ... creating one of ScubaBoard's earliest megathreads. At the time that I became a moderator ... sometime in 2003 as I recall ... the discussion about creating a separate DIR forum was already in progress. As I mentioned earlier, I was initially not in favor of it ... because I believe that creating "camps" is divisive, and that people should be judged by their attitude and behavior ... not by their equipment or training choices. I still believe that way.

The DIR forum initially enjoyed a lot of success as a place where like-minded people could go and talk about the system. It had its ups and downs ... and people passed through who were not good representatives of that style of diving ... not because of the merits of the system, but because their attitude sucked. People also came through who had no interest in DIR, but just wanted to stir up trouble in the forum ... their attitude sucked too. As with all things, bad attitudes are independent of personal choices in this or any other activity.

Over time the forum became much less of a success because, since it was open to everybody, every thread ultimately got hijacked by non-DIR divers with an axe to grind and it became impossible to have a civil discussion about the merits or the system, or to answer questions from the DIR-curious. The people who were most qualified to participate ultimately decided it was a waste of time and moved on. You, Ron, were consistently one of the people who disrupted those conversations ... and as such did more to ensure the failure of the forum than contribute to its success.

After a time, those people who truly wanted a place where they could discuss DIR issues without the constant interruptions by the DIR-unfriendly asked for, and received, an opt-in forum with a moderator who is DIR-trained. You call it a wall ... yes it is ... but it is a self-imposed wall because it's the only way we could discuss anything without being disrupted by "protesters" every time we wanted to talk about something. So I'm not sure what "we" you're referring to, but the only participation you had in that was by being one of the disruptive influences that made conversation in an open forum impossible.

You're entitled to grind whatever axe you like as a participant in a thread, Ron ... but I seriously hope that as a staff member you are being recused from ANY moderator conversation or decision regarding DIR ... because you are clearly unwilling to do so objectively ... even to the point of personal attack ... i.e. referring to DIR divers as "zealots". Frankly, that sort of behavior is unbecoming of anybody who wants to represent this board in an official capacity ... because it shows that you are unwilling to treat a group of members here with the basic respect that they are entitled to ... the same respect you would expect to be treated with in return.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

I really didn't and don't want this thread to turn into a "DIR versus the rest of the world" thread. DIR, as possibly poorly chosen as the word was (and GUE doesn't use it any more -- the only reason I do is that GUE isn't the only organization to take this KIND of tack) is one way to dive. Yes, perhaps some of us get a little overenthusiastic, simply because the system works so well for us that we can't believe it wouldn't be great for anybody (and honestly, I do believe that ). But people get wildly enthusiastic about their Zeagle BCs, or their DSS wings, and nobody thinks they're condescending or "preachy".

But there are a lot of ways to approach diving, and there's room in the ocean for all of us. The two points I wanted to make were a) that this particular diver had found we were not all jerks, and b) that he had found we were ​the most fun to dive with!

 

[DivemasterDennis]

As the co- author of The Scuba Snobs Guide to Diving Etiquette, and purveyor of "Scuba Snobs" logo items on our website, we are not loved by everyone either. However, we take a lighthearted and sometimes sarcastic approach to get across points about diving etiquette and in fact, dive safety. Not everyone loves our approach ( those who perhaps don't get our brand of humor) just like not everyone loves DIR. I am a cheerleader for recreational diving, I try to encourage others in everything I post or blog. Not everyone takes that approach. There is room in scuba for all of us. One can be serious and nice at the same time. Hopefully.
DivemasterDennis

 

[Lemna]

But there are a lot of ways to approach diving, and there's room in the ocean for all of us. The two points I wanted to make were a) that this particular diver had found we were not all jerks, and b) that he had found we were ​the most fun to dive with!

At least here on SB you can read the opinions of GUE/UTD/DIR/... divers. The local community is quite closed and inaccessible. AFAIK they use a closed mailing list. You need to apply for membership by writing a small essay and commit to taking Fundies within one year. If you don't finish the course successfully you are expelled from the list. It is not exactly welcoming and makes it really hard to find a DIR-minded buddy to see for yourself if it is an approach that would work for you.

 

[HenrikBP]

... redundant black t-shirts ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I think redundant black jeans were added to the SOP recently ...

Heads up: I started GUE training 2-3 years ago, and was blissfully unaware of any DIR or anti-DIR "propaganda" at the time.

I was fortunate to be able to attend a GUE intro day with 2 outstanding (and very kind and patient) GUE instructors. When I saw their in-water skills and realized the comfort such skills would allow, I just had to "get me some of that".

It has since led to a lot of great, fun and comfortable diving with some of the nicest and most fun divers I've met in my relatively short diving career. I may have just been lucky, but I haven't met anyone in the DIR diving community I wouldn't also want to be around above water.

For me DIR diving is more about a mindset: that we all have a responsibility to each other - that we *all* have a safe and *fun* dive. A responsibility that starts well before we hit the water and extends until everyone is safely aboard, out of their gear and comfortably seated with a refreshment talking about the great dive we just had.

The gear is really just an aside to the mindset.

Henrik