Advice on a regulator

[manni-yunk]

That's true but usually it changes as the company grows. You cannot rely on the enthusiasm of few people anymore.

Very good point. Which is why I am overly brand loyal to certain brands....until.......they change the way they treat me and others, then I make room for a different brand.

 

[Abdullah]

You can expect.....whatever you want. Sounds like you expect to pay more, for marketing hype. You are confusing manufacturing costs with marketing costs. Manufacturing costs are not significantly different - however the "cost of sale" is what is significantly diferent.


Please help me understand, based on your post, how thousands and thousands of us are diving HOGS - which can be bought at a significantly less expensive price that Apeks and SP - and almost all have agreed that the WOB, and overall quality is right on par.

The answer is simple. Its not a significant difference in the manufacturing costs. Its less marketing, less burdened overall costs to carry and move, Less company infrastructure, and a willingless to make a superior product without the fluffed up price. Profit by volume rather than individual units.

I don't recall anyone saying anything about HOGS regs in this thread - must be a sensitive topic for you - buyers remorse? From your post, it sounds like they have a marketing strategy to dump a high volume of cheap products on the market to establish their business.

 

[manni-yunk]

I don't recall anyone saying anything about HOGS regs in this thread - must be a sensitive topic for you - buyers remorse? From your post, it sounds like they have a marketing strategy to dump a high volume of cheap products on the market to establish their business.

Lol - yes. I have buyers remorse so much - that I bought 2 more in November and another last week.

And - lets go ahead and "pretend" that in all of these technical reg discussions, whenever someone tries to emphasize SP or Apeks over a "budget" tech reg......that they are not talking specifically about Hog. Sure - that pretense is beneficial to anyone reading......

Hog is the lower cost, higher quality option that many tech divers have turned to despite the fact the high dollar reg loyalists are trying to rebrand them as a budget, but low quality option. You know it, I know it.....but sure....lets go ahead and play games.

 

[Abdullah]

Lol - yes. I have buyers remorse so much - that I bought 2 more in November and another last week.

And - lets go ahead and "pretend" that in all of these technical reg discussions, whenever someone tries to emphasize SP or Apeks over a "budget" tech reg......that they are not talking specifically about Hog. Sure - that pretense is beneficial to anyone reading......

Hog is the lower cost, higher quality option that many tech divers have turned to despite the fact the high dollar reg loyalists are trying to rebrand them as a budget, but low quality option. You know it, I know it.....but sure....lets go ahead and play games.

I wasn't referring to HOG, but since you want to go there... Before I invested in my tek regulators, I test dived a bunch of regs. I compared HOG to ScubaPro MK25/S600 on a dive to 50 meters by swapping long hose with my buddy. The SP WOB was way better than the HOG. No comparison. I had done a similar test with Apeks and thought the SP was a little better than Apeks. If I was diving cold water, I probably would have went with the Apeks. But HOG wasn't even in the final group.

As for your opinion that HOG is cheaper because the big guys spend more on marketing - HOG is made in China, where they have no health, safety, or environmental requirements (same people who use lead paint on childrens toys). And HOG is a good copy of the Apeks designs, which means they don't need to hire design engineers, conduct research, and develop products at significant expense. Combine no R&D costs, no environmental responsibilities, no employee benefits, and indentured servitude wages and you get a significant cost advantage over companies that manufacture in the west and have to pay people a living wage and not pollute the environment. Where does the runoff from the HOG plant go?

And, Quality is an empirical measurement, not your opinion. Show me data that says the manufacturing process for HOG is any better than anyone else. Which CNC machines do they use (Citizen? Tornos? a cheaper version?). What are their tolerances? How do their tolerances compare to their competitors? What is their material sourcing process? What is their reject rate? What is their rework rate? What is their customer return rate?

 

[manni-yunk]

I wasn't referring to HOG, but since you want to go there... Before I invested in my tek regulators, I test dived a bunch of regs. I compared HOG to ScubaPro MK25/S600 on a dive to 50 meters by swapping long hose with my buddy. The SP WOB was way better than the HOG. No comparison. I had done a similar test with Apeks and thought the SP was a little better than Apeks. If I was diving cold water, I probably would have went with the Apeks. But HOG wasn't even in the final group.

As for your opinion that HOG is cheaper because the big guys spend more on marketing - HOG is made in China, where they have no health, safety, or environmental requirements (same people who use lead paint on childrens toys). And HOG is a good copy of the Apeks designs, which means they don't need to hire design engineers, conduct research, and develop products at significant expense. Combine no R&D costs, no environmental responsibilities, no employee benefits, and indentured servitude wages and you get a significant cost advantage over companies that manufacture in the west and have to pay people a living wage and not pollute the environment. Where does the runoff from the HOG plant go?

And, Quality is an empirical measurement, not your opinion. Show me data that says the manufacturing process for HOG is any better than anyone else. Which CNC machines do they use (Citizen? Tornos? a cheaper version?). What are their tolerances? How do their tolerances compare to their competitors? What is their material sourcing process? What is their reject rate? What is their rework rate? What is their customer return rate?

So let me get this straight. Quality should only be measured by scientific standards and my opinion is otherwise not acceptable to this discussion - BUT - your 20 second 50 m breath test on your buddies reg constitutes scientific reasoning as to which reg breathes better?????


And to your last statement - I have no idea. But - what I do know is that the 50 or so that I know if that are used from close friends on a daily basis......all replaced apeks, zeagle, poseidon and SP and they are all happier - THUS, my OPINION as to which is a better reg at a better value. And - to their customer return rate - Im not sure that anyone in the dive gear industry has a better reputation to how they handle returns and issues. The few that I have read abotu were immediately replaced with no questions or paperwork asked. Everything that gets manufactured will have issues and/or returns. The measure of quality here is.....How does the manufacturer handle it when/if it happens.

 

[JohnN]

And, Quality is an empirical measurement, not your opinion. Show me data that says the manufacturing process for HOG is any better than anyone else. Which CNC machines do they use (Citizen? Tornos? a cheaper version?). What are their tolerances? How do their tolerances compare to their competitors? What is their material sourcing process? What is their reject rate? What is their rework rate? What is their customer return rate?

Isn't that an entirely disengenuous argument? Unless you're the long lost son of the Chairman of the Board, you don't have the equavalent detail for ScubaPro, so if you had the information for Hog/Edge, what would you compare it to?

As for your "test", did you verify the 1st stage IP and second stage cracking pressure on both regulators were equavalent? You already indicated you do your own SP service (voiding your SP warranty), since you're a stickler for rigor in testing, did you apply the same process to your own test?

 

[cerich]

true, it's also developing a corporate culture. Our growth means more people but we intend to keep our philosophy constant and our principles.

That's true but usually it changes as the company grows. You cannot rely on the enthusiasm of few people anymore.

---------- Post added March 8th, 2013 at 02:34 PM ----------

As for your opinion that HOG is cheaper because the big guys spend more on marketing - HOG is made in China, where they have no health, safety, or environmental requirements (same people who use lead paint on childrens toys). And HOG is a good copy of the Apeks designs, which means they don't need to hire design engineers, conduct research, and develop products at significant expense. Combine no R&D costs, no environmental responsibilities, no employee benefits, and indentured servitude wages and you get a significant cost advantage over companies that manufacture in the west and have to pay people a living wage and not pollute the environment. Where does the runoff from the HOG plant go?

You're being a jerk. My regs are made in Taiwan, not China. Implying that HOG regs are made by the same people as make lead paint in kids toys is bull. I was the first in the industry to use a better, more environmental chrome process. Look it up. I did that knowing it will cost me more and also knowing it's the environment in Taiwan that will most be immediately affected. You'll find that HOG regs aren't actually copies of Apeks.

You are making statements about HOG that are unsubstantiated and untrue, demanding "facts" that you don't even have for the brands you seem to promote.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I didn't read far enough down the page. Was just going to address this.

And I don't put much stock in comments made by someone regarding health and safety from a region where :

"Unrest has been inspired by the Arab Spring groundswell of political dissent in the region. Protests began in January 2011, with protestors demanding political reforms and jobs. They were dispersed by riot police and in February 2011 one demonstrator was shot dead by police. Sultan Qaboos reacted by promising jobs and benefits. In October 2011, elections were held to the Consultative Council, for which Sultan Qaboos promised greater powers. The following year, the government began a crackdown on Internet criticism. In September 2012, trials began of 'activists' accused of posting "abusive and provocative" criticism of the government online. Six were given jail terms of 12–18 months and fines of around $2,500 each."

Yeah some real human rights there.

"It is worth noting that Oman is one of the very few remaining UN members that has not fully ratified the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women.

Oman's interpretation of the Islamic Sharia law is what controls the personal status law in all matters related to marriage, divorce, inheritance and child custody.

It’s legally possible in Oman for any male member of a family to marry a woman off without their consent.

The men of the family ‘arrange’ it all. A husband can grab two strangers off the street and make them sign a divorce document in court as witnesses. The court doesn't even bother to make sure the woman gets a copy of the divorce paper.

It’s legally possible in Oman for a man to divorce his wife with two witnesses, then go home and pretend nothing happened.

A man can legally take on an additional wife without informing his first wife. The personal status law of Oman is very vague about polygamy.
It only specifies that a man should treat all his wives equally.

It is nearly impossible for an Omani woman to marry a foreigner. There are seven billion people on this planet, but the country tells them they are only allowed to marry one of the several hundred thousand men who hold an Omani passport."

Sounds more like slavery to me and that is worse than indentured servitude. An indentured servant at least has some chance at gaining freedom.

 

[mopardiver]

As you can tell, there are plenty of great brands with loyal followers that think their brand is the best. If I were you, I would definitely get a DIN first stage no matter what brand you choose, and also purchase a yoke adapter.

 

[TigerDiver8]

Thank you all for the input, and had no intentions of this starting a brand war. But again thanks for everything.