Advice on TDI Advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures training

[Jim Lapenta]

I was not taught the back kick. I also learned it on my own. I do try to teach it to new OW students and spend more time on it in advanced and specialty classes. Some get it, some don't. When I left the shop and agency I was with to do my NAUI Intro an Helitrox I had a pretty decent one going. During those classes I worked on it intensely. Enough that the shop started to send people to me just so I could get them proficient with it.

Along with a helicopter turn and modified frog, the back kick is one of the key skills I try to pass on to underwater Nav students as well. Precision turns, being able to reverse quickly, and to not silt up the site are critical skills for successful navigation. IMO.

 

[kr2y5]

I wasn't taught on my course, learned on my own.

I was not taught the back kick. I also learned it on my own.

Same here. I'm still struggling. Why isn't it taught in the class? It's hard to hover in position to do a valve drill or shoot an SMB, when you keep accidentally propelling yourself forward with the slightest kick movements.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Just confirmed that in the standards it is not a required skill for AN/DP or even advanced wreck.

However it is a REQUIRED skill for the TDI Intro to Tech course. I would have to say that it's expected that a student would have completed Intro first or an equivalent.

But I can't imagine even taking on a student for anything above Intro if they could not do this. I'd say it's a required skill if you're even contemplating going the tech route.

 

[tursiops]

But I can't imagine even taking on a student for anything above Intro if they could not do this. I'd say it's a required skill if you're even contemplating going the tech route.

That's why I teach it in PPB...with the usual motivation-to-the-student being U/W photography.

 

[kr2y5]

Just confirmed that in the standards it is not a required skill for AN/DP or even advanced wreck. However it is a REQUIRED skill for the TDI Intro to Tech course. I would have to say that it's expected that a student would have completed Intro first or an equivalent. But I can't imagine even taking on a student for anything above Intro if they could not do this. I'd say it's a required skill if you're even contemplating going the tech route.

I applaud you for upholding high standards, sadly one instructor's good attitude does not change the reality for most divers... AFAIK, the TDI Intro to Tech course is not a formal prerequisite for AN/DP. I have taken the class, actually, but the instructor made no attempt to teach the skill. For all I know, it is in this class that people usually get to select gear with the instructor's help, and have their first chance to dive with doubles, and given that the entire class consists of 3 dives (and for me, this meant 1 confined + 2 OW), it is hard to imagine that a person, who's just happy to survive their first dive in doubles without rolling over, and even close a valve, shoot a bag and ascend on it without killing themselves in the process, would learn multiple techniques for non-silting propulsion on top of all that. For all I know, people who learned a lot in the class, either had an instructor who really went out of his way, and way beyond standards, or had access to some good mentoring. In contrast, as much as my Intro class left me disappointed, I felt that AN/DP was the first course, and I dare say maybe the only class I took that was well worth the money. Still, in the end, I am left having to practice on my own, and sign up for GUE Fundies to iron out the many deficiencies in my training.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I applaud you for upholding high standards, sadly one instructor's good attitude does not change the reality for most divers... AFAIK, the TDI Intro to Tech course is not a formal prerequisite for AN/DP. I have taken the class, actually, but the instructor made no attempt to teach the skill. For all I know, it is in this class that people usually get to select gear with the instructor's help, and have their first chance to dive with doubles, and given that the entire class consists of 3 dives (and for me, this meant 1 confined + 2 OW), it is hard to imagine that a person, who's just happy to survive their first dive in doubles without rolling over, and even close a valve, shoot a bag and ascend on it without killing themselves in the process, would learn multiple techniques for non-silting propulsion on top of all that. For all I know, people who learned a lot in the class, either had an instructor who really went out of his way, and way beyond standards, or had access to some good mentoring. In contrast, as much as my Intro class left me disappointed, I felt that AN/DP was the first course, and I dare say maybe the only class I took that was well worth the money. Still, in the end, I am left having to practice on my own, and sign up for GUE Fundies to iron out the many deficiencies in my training.

If you only did two OW dives your course was not taught to standards. Three OW dives are required.

I do five with my students plus a pool session if necessary.

Doubles are not required. You can do the course with a single and slung bottle. Or just a single. I had a student do it with the former.

In water drills item # 4 states - Demonstrate no-silting propulsion techniques: frog kick, modified frog kick, modified flutter kick, backwards kick.

There are at least two very clear standards violations in the Intro Class you took that should be reported to TDI. I'm willing to hazard a guess you are not the first to have gotten this level of training from that instructor. And that the person before you did not report them. Which is why you got what you did.

Improvements cannot be made if people are not willing to speak up and call attention to deficiencies. I just completed AS9100 Internal Auditor training for the Aviation, Space, and Defense Industries for my day job. At some point I am going to have to do an audit based on the AS9100 standards. Given the penalties for letting things go under those standards, I'm not cutting anyone any slack at my company. Those audits get reviewed by the outside auditors. If they find something I missed it's one thing. If they find something I let slide it's a whole nother can of worms.

Just as an example. I let something slide and a bad part makes it into an airplane. If it is proven it's up to a 500,000 fine and 15 yrs in jail. If that plane crashed it's a 1,000,000 fine and life in prison. Plus a minimum 20,000,000 fine for the company. I don't care about the latter. But I'm not going to ruin my life for someone else to allow them to get by.

When those who violate standards are not reported it endangers every one after that may take that class. Or at least allows them to get ripped off. That goes for any class. From OW on.

 

[KenGordon]

If you only did two OW dives your course was not taught to standards. Three OW dives are required.

I do five with my students plus a pool session if necessary.

Doubles are not required. You can do the course with a single and slung bottle. Or just a single. I had a student do it with the former.

In water drills item # 4 states - Demonstrate no-silting propulsion techniques: frog kick, modified frog kick, modified flutter kick, backwards kick.

There are at least two very clear standards violations in the Intro Class you took that should be reported to TDI. I'm willing to hazard a guess you are not the first to have gotten this level of training from that instructor. And that the person before you did not report them. Which is why you got what you did.

Improvements cannot be made if people are not willing to speak up and call attention to deficiencies. I just completed AS9100 Internal Auditor training for the Aviation, Space, and Defense Industries for my day job. At some point I am going to have to do an audit based on the AS9100 standards. Given the penalties for letting things go under those standards, I'm not cutting anyone any slack at my company. Those audits get reviewed by the outside auditors. If they find something I missed it's one thing. If they find something I let slide it's a whole nother can of worms.

Just as an example. I let something slide and a bad part makes it into an airplane. If it is proven it's up to a 500,000 fine and 15 yrs in jail. If that plane crashed it's a 1,000,000 fine and life in prison. Plus a minimum 20,000,000 fine for the company. I don't care about the latter. But I'm not going to ruin my life for someone else to allow them to get by.

When those who violate standards are not reported it endangers every one after that may take that class. Or at least allows them to get ripped off. That goes for any class. From OW on.

How is the student supposed to tell whether the instructor was following the agency's standards? They have a student workbook, not the instructor notes. Are they really in a position to report an instructor?

 

[tursiops]

How is the student supposed to tell whether the instructor was following the agency's standards? They have a student workbook, not the instructor notes. Are they really in a position to report an instructor?

It is a good question. I think at the technical level the student ought to get a copy of the standards for the class, in advance. Intro to Tech is just 5 pages, no big deal.

 

[kafkaland]

How is the student supposed to tell whether the instructor was following the agency's standards? They have a student workbook, not the instructor notes. Are they really in a position to report an instructor?

Actually, after a few sub-optimal experiences I look at the instructor manual online (Google is your friend) before talking to a potential instructor about the course, and what he will teach. The comparison of what he tells me with the minimum standards tells me a lot about him or her.

 

[tursiops]

Actually, after a few sub-optimal experiences I look at the instructor manual online (Google is your friend) before talking to a potential instructor about the course, and what he will teach. The comparison of what he tells me with the minimum standards tells me a lot about him or her.

Good strategy....but make sure you are seeing the latest/current version of standards. They are updated annually.