Any comments on the BCD inflater integrated Octos?

[Jake]

Oh, and with regards to a computer: try the Aeris Atmos II for a good computer south of $300. I use the wrist mounted one, and have been happy with it. It works for EANx too.

 

[komi hunter]

I have the atomic SS1 and I love it the thing is the integrated are more expensive and they do take some getting used to as they are different from a standard octo. I would say try it and see what you think for your self as it is a personal thing.

 

[divingjd]

I don't really understand the problem that this solves. Does that extra hose really cause a problem underwater, and can you just *route* it better to solve any streamlining/snagging issues?

Cave divers use a 7' long hose / bungee necklace config and do not use integrated octo/inflators, and if anyone should care about streamlining and snagging it should be them...

It seems to me that divers are getting hung up on removing hoses for the sake of removing hoses.

Number one, cave divers have an extreme interest in streamlining, but they also have other concerns. In particular, cave divers (and others in overhead environments, such as wreck divers in a penetration situation) have to be prepared to swim a fair distance in an air-sharing situation, probably single file. Although I am a big fan of the AIR2, I wouldn't want to use it in that situation either. That's an equipment choice that depends on several factors.

Number two, it is not just getting rid of the hose, it is getting rid of the octo itself. The safe second is built into the same housing as the power inflator. Total number of danglies reduced by one. It is also much easier to locate and recover an integrated air source than an octo. No clips or other hardware needed. It's not dragging behind in the sand or bouncing over the reef. It is right there on your left shoulder.

 

[divingjd]

I would also agree in principle, but don't forget you could very well have a panicked diver that could make keeping oriented and calm pretty challenging. With regards to swimming, I'll also agree that in general you want to go straight to the surface, but if the donating diver has plenty of gas and the receiving diver is calm and in control, I personally would want to do a safety stop and very slow ascent, which might be more comfortable with some room between the divers. There is a solution for these scenarios with an AIR2, just use a longer primary hose. Then, really the main differences between this and the bungied alternate are that you need a hand to get it to your mouth, and you can't extend the inflator over your head to vent, neither of which is too big a deal in OW rec situations. Remember for 90% at least of rec divers, the top of the BC air cell will not be higher than their mouth, so venting while breathing is possible.

I think it's the short hose going to the OOA diver that's the issue, and that's easily solvable. I've read so many posts that basically say "diving with a AIR2 means you're gonna die" and I wonder if people that are that worried about risk should be diving at all. That said, I don't dive with one, but that's because I got such a good deal on a nice alternate and my wing has a VERY short inflator hose, which I love.

Wanting to do a safety stop is a good thing and not inconsistent with using an integrated air source or doing the kind of ascent you should do in an air-sharing situation. When we say that you should not be doing anything but going up in an air-sharing situation, we are not suggesting that you race for the surface as fast as possible and blow through the safety stop. Assuming that you have enough gas, you do a nice slow ascent, not more than 30 ft./min, do a safety stop for five minutes, three minimum, at 15-20 ft., and then complete your ascent very slowly.

In an air-sharing situation, I want my divers in physical contact, holding onto each other. The donor should be looking in the needer's eyes the whole time, watching for signs of panic. The fact that the needer is calm when starting the ascent doesn't mean he or she is going to stay that way. Try looking your buddy in the eyes from three or four feet. Just a slight change in angle will make your buddy's mask into a mirror. You want to be a foot or two away during an air-sharing ascent in open water. I would teach that (as I suspect most other instructors would) regardless of gear configuration (as stated above, overhead environments are a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THING, which is beyond the limits of recreational scuba).

I have used both octos (rental gear in my early diving) and integrated air sources (my own gear and the gear where I teach) and have used the AIR2 extensively in air-sharing ascents. I would rather have the AIR2 and have never had a problem with it. Those who speculate on the difficulty of an AIR2 air-sharing ascent without ever having tried it, and postulating circumstances beyond the limits of recreational diving, or practices different than their training, are just setting up straw men to knock them down.

If you've tried it and don't like it, fine, that's up to you. That's why there are choices. This is a matter of preference, not a matter of good vs. bad, safe vs. unsafe.

 

[Fredi]

I prefer the traditional octo .Of course one can always get use to any system but after using the Zeagle Octo Plus for about 50 dives,I finally ditched it.I now use a shorter octo hose with a necklace and is streamline and practical.And you may wanna check out the Aeris Atmos II wrist computer very user friendly and about $280 at Scubatoy.

 

[DiverBeth]

I'm going to add my 2 cents for what it's worth. I have an Air2 and love it. Used it once in an OOA situation. Gave my primary to my buddy face to face and holding on to each other we ascended. No problem.

I really think this is a matter of personal preference. See if you can try both and use what works for you best. However, if you use an integrated setup be sure you're comfortable with it. Sooner or later someone is going to disagree with your choice no matter what you do.

 

[lamont]

Number one, cave divers have an extreme interest in streamlining, but they also have other concerns. In particular, cave divers (and others in overhead environments, such as wreck divers in a penetration situation) have to be prepared to swim a fair distance in an air-sharing situation, probably single file. Although I am a big fan of the AIR2, I wouldn't want to use it in that situation either. That's an equipment choice that depends on several factors.

Number two, it is not just getting rid of the hose, it is getting rid of the octo itself. The safe second is built into the same housing as the power inflator. Total number of danglies reduced by one. It is also much easier to locate and recover an integrated air source than an octo. No clips or other hardware needed. It's not dragging behind in the sand or bouncing over the reef. It is right there on your left shoulder.

Yeah, but a long hose and a bungee necklace fix all those issues without the problem of having your inflator in your mouth during an OOA. No danglies, nothing out of your profile to catch on, trivial to 'recover' your necklace, not dragging behind in the sand and you know if its free flowing. The only "benefit" of an integrated inflator/octo seems to be eliminating the hose for the sake of eliminating the hose.

I'm also not really certain of this assumption that you always need to and want to make a direct ascent as well. The most common OOAs that my buddies have been involved in have been divers not in their group who come up to them and OOA them or flash them an SPG way into the red. In that situation, if you've still got a lot of gas, there's nothing wrong with finding the upline, or swimming up shore. This isn't something that only tech or cave divers should be able to do.

 

[divingjd]

Yeah, but a long hose and a bungee necklace fix all those issues without the problem of having your inflator in your mouth during an OOA. No danglies, nothing out of your profile to catch on, trivial to 'recover' your necklace, not dragging behind in the sand and you know if its free flowing. The only "benefit" of an integrated inflator/octo seems to be eliminating the hose for the sake of eliminating the hose.

I'm also not really certain of this assumption that you always need to and want to make a direct ascent as well. The most common OOAs that my buddies have been involved in have been divers not in their group who come up to them and OOA them or flash them an SPG way into the red. In that situation, if you've still got a lot of gas, there's nothing wrong with finding the upline, or swimming up shore. This isn't something that only tech or cave divers should be able to do.

I do not disagree that the bungee necklace setup is also a good way to address the issue. If I were going to use a separate octo, I would do it that way. For standard open water diving, the integrated air source is another good option. Eliminating the hose itself isn't really the main point. It is a way of making sure you don't have a hose out of your profile to snag and addressing the other issues we have both mentioned.

I still disagree on the direct ascent. Doing something else, like finding the upline or swimming up the shore might make sense in perfect circumstances, but there are just so many things that can go wrong. I suppose if I was with one of the other instructors, DiveCons, or experienced divers from our shop, somebody I knew pretty well, I might be willing to do something like that. But I wouldn't teach that to a new open water diver as a problem-solving method. We try to teach the simplest approach that will work in all circumstances, so that a diver in a stressful situation has fewer decisions to make. If a diver in a stressful situation has fewer choices, he or she will respond more quickly and will be more likely to do the right thing. So we teach them to ascend, not to figure out whether to ascend or do something else first. It's just a matter of making it as foolproof as possible. I really don't want people trying to figure out in those circumstances whether they have enough gas left to find the upline (for example). First, there is the task-loading problem. How reliable is that estimate/calculation going to be? Second, how are you going to evaluate it? Do you know the other person's SAC? Are they going to be huffing and puffing because they are nervous? I think the answers are probably no and yes, in that order. Frankly, in an OOA situation, I am not going to assume that the OOA diver is going to be calm or very skilled. The fact that this person is OOA is an indication of a skill problem, unless this is the extremely rare case of equipment failure. If I were in the situation you described, with some stranger dashing up OOA, I personally wouldn't go anywhere but to the surface with that person.

 

[lamont]

I still disagree on the direct ascent. Doing something else, like finding the upline or swimming up the shore might make sense in perfect circumstances, but there are just so many things that can go wrong. I suppose if I was with one of the other instructors, DiveCons, or experienced divers from our shop, somebody I knew pretty well, I might be willing to do something like that. But I wouldn't teach that to a new open water diver as a problem-solving method. We try to teach the simplest approach that will work in all circumstances, so that a diver in a stressful situation has fewer decisions to make. If a diver in a stressful situation has fewer choices, he or she will respond more quickly and will be more likely to do the right thing. So we teach them to ascend, not to figure out whether to ascend or do something else first. It's just a matter of making it as foolproof as possible.

I can see this as a teaching approach for newer divers, but experienced recreational divers are capable of having more options.

I really don't want people trying to figure out in those circumstances whether they have enough gas left to find the upline (for example).

Its not that difficult. At 60 fsw, 300 psi / 10 min for one diver is conservative for me. if I triple that to 1000 psi / 10 min and I have more than 1000 psi, I know I've got at least 10 minutes left.

First, there is the task-loading problem. How reliable is that estimate/calculation going to be? Second, how are you going to evaluate it? Do you know the other person's SAC?

Check your SPG and check 5 mins later and you now know a reasonably accurate RMV estimate. Since you should be working your way more shallow and using less gas, you can use it as a worst-case.

Are they going to be huffing and puffing because they are nervous? I think the answers are probably no and yes, in that order. Frankly, in an OOA situation, I am not going to assume that the OOA diver is going to be calm or very skilled. The fact that this person is OOA is an indication of a skill problem, unless this is the extremely rare case of equipment failure. If I were in the situation you described, with some stranger dashing up OOA, I personally wouldn't go anywhere but to the surface with that person.

Depends on the situation. If I'm coming back from a dive to 90-100 for 30 mins (or in some cases for me 100-110 for 35 mins on 30/30) then I'm not going to be real keen on doing a direct ascent. I'd rather go upslope so that we've got the ground under us and the OOA diver has junk to grab on. Trying to take a unskilled OOA diver through a blue-water ascent while I'm worried about running up against or going somewhat over the NDLs is not going to be my first option.

Actually, the more I think about the less I like the direct ascent method. If you've got an upline or the shore available, that's much more preferable to attempting a blue water ascent with a random OOA person. Even if you're not pushing the limits, you've still got a much better chance at doing a decent ascent rate and safety stop, whereas with the blue water ascent you're risking corking or flopping around in the water column really bad.

I don't buy it at all that not doing a direct ascent in an OOA is a skill strictly only for tech divers.

 

[Stu S.]

The octo-on-inflator hose, such as Genesis Sidekick, does what it is supposed to to. Mine worked really well and was easy to find. I sold it and got a more conventional octo. There is less to do when using an octo on its own hose. Hand over the octo, and grab onto the diver. That's it. We then go slowly up in open water. Straight up. You can practice all sorts of things with your skilled buddies, but skilled divers don't get OAA. That's why we go straight up.