Any comments on the BCD inflater integrated Octos?

[wreckchick]

First of all, I don't train new divers to ascend directly to the surface in ALL OOA situations. It's not the proper response. I train them to evaluate the dive and what is the safest way to execute the air-sharing ascent.

Why? What's more stressful, taking a minute or two to fine the upline leading directly to A boat, preferably your boat, or directly ascending to the surface with an unknown (or known) OOA diver in the middle of the ocean with any current at all? I don't need an OOA diver on the bottom turning into a panicked diver on the surface when we're finally up and he/she realizes the boat WAY OVER THERE!!! I don't need an OOA diver that can't hold a stop pulling me up and down while I'm trying to make a normal blue-water ascent. I'd much rather stick that person on a line.

All that said, if you want to dive an integrated 2nd, go for it. All the comments about diving "beyond the scope of your equipment" if it's improper to make a direct ascent to the surface are correct. Those situations are not beyond the scope of your training, just the scope of your equipment. I'd rather do dives to the limit of my training and I equip myself appropriately.

Rachel

 

[RJP]

Swimming anywhere, like back to an anchor line, with an out of air diver is a big mistake. Just get the diver to the surface. If you can not ascend directly to the surface, you are diving beyond the range of your equipment.

Come do some diving off the NJ coast in 3-6ft seas with a nice current and you'll think differently about a direct ascent vs coming up the anchor line.



You come up off the anchor line around here and you're just asking for trouble:

- you're more than likely gonna end up a L-O-N-G way from the boat
- the capt's gonna have to pop the hook and/or put crew in the water to get you
- if there are other divers in the water that means they will come back to find the anchorline gone

It's a good way to make sure you're never welcome on that boat again, and to rule out a dozen or so divers as potential buddies.

Ray

 

[Chad Carney]

One of the "dive gone bad" stories Mike Ange wrote in Scubadiving Magazine a while back, mirrored this discussion.

A young woman, a confident and skilled diver, with a lot of gas in her tank, shares air with a big guy that has gone OOA on a moderatley deep wreck. They head up current to the up line and then start their ascent. The big guy has sucked down her tank at an alarming rate, and they run out and both bolt for the surface. Neither diver makes it. They both die!

The young woman's critical error in judment was thinking they had a lot of time to get up, because her own relaxed breathing rate was very good. Under stress her breathing rate was not as good, and the OOA diver's breathing rate was horrible. Had they immediately begun the ascent they would have certainly made it, by avoiding the up current swim at depth and the gradual ascent grade of the upline. Sure they would have been down current from the boat, but alive and on the surface. Even if they had ascended too quickly and had DCS issues, it beats the alternative.

It's heart breaking to think a good diver who stepped up to help a bad diver, lost her life as well, because she had insufficient experience dealing with the real life rescue of a panicked diver.

I had a small girl I did not know, go OOA on a drift dive, while I was teaching an AOW class. Her strength was amazing, as her nails were dug pretty deep into both my arms on the way up. I took her straight up from about 80' and made a safety stop of about 3 minutes. By the end of that time, my gas supply was no longer in good reserve.

I've been teaching 29 years and had a few real OOA rescues. (BTW, none were my divers.) I would not want to spend a single minute longer than I absolutely must, to get any diver to the surface. If I could see the line on the way up, and reach it without adding any tough swimming, sure I'd like to, but I've always had my hands full controlling the OOA diver. No ascents were on a line.

I hate diving with strangers, so I rarely do it anymore.

Chad

 

[Chad Carney]

Come do some diving off the NJ coast in 3-6ft seas with a nice current and you'll think differently about a direct ascent vs coming up the anchor line.



You come up off the anchor line around here and you're just asking for trouble:

- you're more than likely gonna end up a L-O-N-G way from the boat
- the capt's gonna have to pop the hook and/or put crew in the water to get you
- if there are other divers in the water that means they will come back to find the anchorline gone

It's a good way to make sure you're never welcome on that boat again, and to rule out a dozen or so divers as potential buddies.

Ray

Ray,

That's a direct ascent if I had to bring up an OOA diver, as in saving his ***!

I don't know a Capt on the planet who would be upset picking me up after that.
(BTW, if you must to save a life, you ditch the anchor line onto a float ball, and quickly pick up your emergency diver. You don't pull your hook with divers in the water.)

Wow, you've got almost a whole year diving in now?

Capt Chad

 

[lamont]

I've been teaching 29 years and had a few real OOA rescues. [...]

Wow, you've got almost a whole year diving in now? [...]

http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=1890141&postcount=20

 

[SparticleBrane]

:lol:

 

[Stu S.]

To our new diver in Jacksonville: You will often see a diver with some sort of "mini" pressure guage on a console dragging along the bottom, or behind that diver. This is a bad idea that started back in the '70's, during my first go-round with diving. In diving (just like an airplane or nuclear reactor) you want the important instruments in easy view of the user. I use a big tank pressure guage, clipped to the BC. Easy to read. I don't have to find it. I use a Cressi computer on the wrist. Easy to read. My octo is at my right hand, just like reaching for a pistol. These are concepts that have stood the test of time. I could post a recent picture of a young lady with these valuable things floating freely behind her on the Sea Empress wreck. Don't be like her. It costs no more to select and set up your gear correctly. Don't be that diver who is the problem. Many happy dives to you!

 

[RJP]

Wow, you've got almost a whole year diving in now?

Capt Chad

Do you use that sort of sarcastic/mocking tone with other new divers? That's real nice. (Note to self: update list of dive operators/instuctors to avoid.)

:-|

It's funny how people on either side of any discussion will tell you "the OTHER side will tout worse-case scenarios to support their point" and then go on to provide their own worse case scenarios...

"Suppose you had a three-hundred pound OOA diver with three lungs wearing 50lbs of lead and you only has 5psi left in your tank?"

Well of course every case is situation dependent - experience, depth, training, equipment, etc, but assuming there's enough air to get to it you are WITHOUT A DOUBT better ascending on a line than doing a free ascent in the open ocean with an OOA diver:

- OOA diver is more than likely more positive than when he/she went in (empty tank)
- or OOW is negative because they can't put air in BC (OOA)
- OOA is likely a bit freaked so less able to control bouyancy
- OOA could turn to panicked diver at any point, esp if you start asccending too fast
- You're going to become more bouyant faster as your tank empties, so less able to control ascent
- At the surface you'll have to now establish bouyancy for TWO people away from the boat, with one or both BCs needing to be orally inflated (remember, OOA) by one or TWO tired, potentially panicked/panicky/panickable divers.


So let's recap, shall we?

Which would you prefer, given proper equipment, training, and air supply?

Scenario 1:

- sharing air with an OOA diver by donating you're primary
- breathing off your Air 2 octo/lpi
- being jammed close together
- doing a direct ascent away from the boat, while controlling bouyancy for two divers with one BC
- getting the boat's attention
- waiting for them to tie off a float and come get you

Scenario 2:

- sharing air with an OOA diver by donating a 7' hose
- breathing off "the same" reg as your primary
- having enough room to maneuver, get the situation squared away, calm the other diver, though still able to maintain direct, eye contact as needed
- swimming a short distance as time and air allow back to anchor
- ascending at safe rate up the line right to the boat
- putting your OOA diver right on the ladder

Pardon my ignorance (as you've correctly pointed out in your ever so tactful manner, I'm a relatively new diver) but I guess I'm not well-trained enough to be able to conclude that Scenario 1 is the preferred option.

As an aside, the difficulty of having the OOA guy huff your tank empty is pretty slim on NJ boat dives in general - and with me specifically - because:

- Reduntant air supply is required on every boat here in NJ: pony or doubles
- I personally sling a 40cf stage bottle as my redundand source, more than enough air to share (in fact depending on where I was air-wise I'd just hand it off to the OOA diver)

In my wreck training I've had occasion to ascend from 80ft while sharing air with an OOA. Had plenty of time to get to the line, ascend to a one min deep stop at 40' a one minute stop at 25' and a five minute stop at 15' - at that point we were right at the dive platform with 800psi left in my main tank and 1000psi left in the stage.

Guess I need more training...

 

[RJP]

...you ditch the anchor line onto a float ball, and quickly pick up your emergency diver. You don't pull your hook with divers in the water.)

Capt Chad

You're right, my bad!

The other divers WILL find the anchorline, they just won't find a boat on the other end of it. That's MUCH better...

 

[Crawl79]

Love my atomic SS1, breathes great and have tryed it several times already for experience.