Best way to work on trim - feet sinking

[The Chairman]

The F1s have the best fitting foot pocket for me. All the other fins I have ever used just hurt my feet. Yes, I have tried and even bought a number of fins, but the F1s are just awesome.

 

[Wayne at DiveSeekers]

F2 fins are light and absolutley no torque! I was doing an advanced buoyancy class a couple of months ago with a student who had F2's. We kept talking about how to fix her overall control problems (finning & trim). At the end of one of the dives I swaped fins (gave her my jets) with her and she was a whole new diver in the water. Meanwhile, I was barely moving in my doubles, had to do a lot more kicks compared to 1 kick in Jets. She applied everything I was telling her (head up, arms out, hands apart, ankles close to butt, point toes/flex feet), as she was trying to do in her fins, but with the Jets, she was more stable, kicked and went somewhere and turns were more precise. She ended up going with the F1's (more comfortable fin pocket, a little less stiff) and is a whole new diver in the water. If you want to embrace the diving style of being in trim and doing the advanced finning techniques, we need to learn to control our body and not have our body conrol us. You will also need to get the bottom time in, best way to do that is to dive locally were ever you are. Does a BC make a difference? Well yeah, I find a BP&W and now Sidemount are a huge advantage. But, if I apply all those steps that I pointed out, I can get the same results in a jacket or conventional back inflation BC, it will just take a little more effort and focus.

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

The F1s have the best fitting foot pocket for me. All the other fins I have ever used just hurt my feet. Yes, I have tried and even bought a number of fins, but the F1s are just awesome.

I love the F1s for the same reason. I'm very sad that they turned out to be too heavy for me: I gave a really good try at getting them to work, but in the end I had to hang them up for a lighter fin.

If you want to embrace the diving style of being in trim and doing the advanced finning techniques, we need to learn to control our body and not have our body conrol us.

I disagree. For minor adjustments, this may be true, but beyond a certain point, using body techniques to maintain trim is just exhausting.

I really want to make this point clear for instructors and others who give advice to aspiring GUE/DIR divers: good trim just doesn't need to be that hard.

I worked my ass off for weeks trying to get my trim right by moving weights around and adjusting my body position ... back arch, butt clench, knee bend, etc. Lots of back and forth with very knowledgeable instructors. Lots of time in the pool moving weights around. After tons of effort, I could get my body positioned so I could hold something that looked like good trim. But it wiped me out, and was an "unstable" state for my body to be in. So it was really easy to fall out of trim when other tasks were loaded on me.

My legs were just too heavy for these subtler measures to work effectively for any length of time. What I really needed was a fin change. The problem was fixed instantly by switching to a lighter fin. Since all the other elements had already been optimized (weight position, etc), the results were instantaneous, and maintaining good trim became effortless.

So, to all who teach: please understand the limits of what body position can fix about a diver's trim. Understand that all bodies are different, and what works for you may not work for your students. When body position and weight adjustments are not enough, consider tweaking other elements like fin weight or other gear swaps, before your students give up in frustration.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I think you may have misunderstood Wayne. It's not about body position only. Like Wayne, I can get in pretty much any rig and trim out nicely without much effort. It doesn't matter if it's a jacket BC, BP/W, backmount, or sidemount. The key is knowing how to configure the gear so no matter what gear it is you will trim out. Even when I swapped fins out with my student a couple weeks ago and was wearing his F1s, I still maintained horizontal trim even when he couldn't. And it wasn't exhausting. I don't expect my students to be able to do this. They wouldn't be coming to me if they could. I do expect them to someday be able to do it though. The only complaint I had about the F1s I put on was that they felt like bricks on my feet compared to my SEAC fins. I didn't have as much power behind them, partly because it was harder to move them. But they didn't put me feet down.

 

[The Chairman]

The only complaint I had about the F1s I put on was that they felt like bricks on my feet compared to my SEAC fins. I didn't have as much power behind them, partly because it was harder to move them.

Every fin has a learning curve. It takes a bit for the diver to adjust their kick to maximize a fin's power with minimal effort. The F1 is a finesse fin. If you kick them like a Jet or similarly stiff fin, you won't get far. No, they won't collapse under power like most split fins, but there is a different ankle movement needed. They were very intuitive to me but that's why there are so many fin types: to match our different styles.

 

[kelemvor]

You could always see if the LDS will give you a credit towards some lighter fins...

 

[Ayisha]

I did check into the F2 fins but both the Hollis dealers around me said that they are sure that they will not fit me, although the manufacturer said they would. They weren't in stock at the time, so I wasn't able to try them.

Hopefully I'll get a favourable response from UTD, but nothing yet.

Thanks to all for helping with my little hijack and sorry for the interruption...

 

[Ardilla Del Mar]

I have this problem too. I'm a brand new diver (15 dives since my cert in July 2013) and I'm always tend to rotate into a heads up position. First I'll describe my setup and then my body position.

My Setup:
Tank = AL80 (steal seems dangerous with a 7mm)
BC = ScubaMax Integra 2 (Jacket Style)
Suit = 7mm Full with 6mm boots, 3mm gloves, 3mm hood
Fins = Sherwood neutrally buoyant (Sorry forgot the model)

Weight Config = 16lbs ditch-able (8 per side) w/ 10 lbs of trim (5 per side)

Body Position: back arched slightly, arms out in front, knees bent at 90 degrees.
Body Type: 5' 11'', 160 pounds, reasonably fit 30 year old

My thoughts are that I have potentially three problems.
A: I'm over weighting
B: My from is not consistent
C: My BC is just not a good candidate for my body type

My potential solutions are too:
A: Work on my form using the recommendations in the GUE "Beginning With the End in Mind."
B: Use a new weight config utilizing 2 pounds of trim ballast around the tank valve (Ankle Weights).
New Weight Config:
14-16lbs of ditch-able (still need to test 14Lbs config in the water with near empty tank)
4lbs in trim pockets
2lbs ankle weight around tank valve
C: Convert to a BP/W set up as recommend by GUE


Solution B may seem to be somewhat ridiculous, but it was a thought that I had about torque and the effect of a longer lever arm.

Also intend to take a class by GUE, because I was blown away by the level of detail they go into for a fundamental class.

I would be very grateful for any advice.

Thanks,

 

[Michael Guerrero]

Try out some of the suggestions in this thread and the many like it in the pool and see if they work.

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

My thoughts are that I have potentially three problems.
A: I'm over weighting
B: My from is not consistent
C: My BC is just not a good candidate for my body type

It's very hard to evaluate without seeing how you look in the water. But you are a very similar size as my wife, so from my experience with her, I'd say (A) is probably true. My wife wears a 7mm suit PLUS a 2mm hooded vest, and yet she only uses 18lbs of weight total, with a non-technical style BC (Zeagle Scout).

For moving weight up, I'd recommend mounting weight pockets on your tank strap.

Since you're in San Diego, you should seriously consider doing an "Extreme Scuba Makeover" with UTD diving:

Extreme Scuba Makeover - Unified Team Diving

This is essentially an all-day buoyancy clinic. They will get you dialed, and work on all of your issues: A, B, and C. (They have a big stock of rental/demo gear so you could experiment with a backplate/wing BC, different fins, weight pockets, etc.)

UTD is a great resource for us San Diegans. We're lucky to have them right here in our backyard.