Sadly the first time something happened you would have a legal battle to fight and the sad part is you would probably lose. Like someone said earlier this is the real world and there are lawyers in it.
C-card question not trolling
- Thread starter Savitar
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Sadly the first time something happened you would have a legal battle to fight and the sad part is you would probably lose. Like someone said earlier this is the real world and there are lawyers in it.
Some of us (attorneys) agree with you.
The big issue comes down to liability. If we sell equipment to an uncertified diver, regardless of skill level, our insurance people would have a fit.
For that reason, we won't sell air or life support equipment without a c-card.
Its not necessarily fair, because someone with your skill obviously doesn't need the card. However, its a condition of the insurance policy (yes, I've looked).
Personally, I'd love to see it so that anyone could buy whatever they wanted, but only so long as they were solely responsible if they managed to win a Darwin award. Unfortunatley, that won't happen anytime soon.
BTW, don't blame all of this on lawyers. If the money hungry plaintiffs weren't knocking down the door, looking for someone to blame besides themselves or the deceased, then PI lawyers would have far less to do. Unfortunately, lawyers and plaintiffs feed off each other.
At the moment I'm insured through IANTD with Marsh (agent) and Loyde's. There is no policy stating we need to see a card to sell equipment. The only restriction is on breathing gas.
Before our current policy we were insured through the PADI policy with V & B and that was the same deal. When we first opened up I was surprised at the way the policy read and made several phone calls.
The only restriction I've ever seen is on breathing gas.
Maybe instead of selling breathing gas I could just rent my compressor to people. Do you suppose there is a proplem with renting compressor time?
Boy, if you could get in trouble selling air out of a compressor immagine what would happen if you sold a compressor. LOL
The dive industry is so F'ed up it isn't even funny.
bwerb
Hoser/English Translator, eh
I believe it went by the wayside around the time that people stopped talking about duty and responsibility and instead started talking about their rights, privleges and entitlements. It's a societal mindeset...not what I owe to the world and society in terms of my behaviour but what I am owed by the world.
Another similar regulation I could bring up is the electrical code on appliances...UL and CSA etc. In most cases you can install anything you want but...if your house burns down and it's discovered that it wasn't an "approved" appliance your insurance may be null and void.
James connell
Contributor
Rick Inman and baracuda2 are on the right track.
as a pre C card diver myself - they had cards in '67 but wouldn't teach an 11 year old so i bought gear and taught myself.
but a lot of people like me went out and killed themselves, the industry saw that if they didn't do something the Goverment *would* hence C cards. after that it sorta got out of hand ( for monitary reasons of course), it's not going to get any better.
as a pre C card diver myself - they had cards in '67 but wouldn't teach an 11 year old so i bought gear and taught myself.
but a lot of people like me went out and killed themselves, the industry saw that if they didn't do something the Goverment *would* hence C cards. after that it sorta got out of hand ( for monitary reasons of course), it's not going to get any better.
The majority of us on this board probably could have learnt how to dive by reading, research, and some trial and error (obviously not big ones ;-); but unfortunately what everyone seems to be missing is this board only reflects a very small portion of the diving community.
I've attended University for a few years now, and as these are supposed to be the smart people... Wow... was I in for a surprise. I can guarantee I wouldn't let them learn scuba on their own... they would definitely f%*^ it up and have some laws brought down undeservingly on the rest of us.
I guess I am just trying to say that I am for the c-card because I truly believe that the majority of the human population is too dumb to learn something as simple (but most importantly) as "Never hold your breath" on their own.
I've attended University for a few years now, and as these are supposed to be the smart people... Wow... was I in for a surprise. I can guarantee I wouldn't let them learn scuba on their own... they would definitely f%*^ it up and have some laws brought down undeservingly on the rest of us.
I guess I am just trying to say that I am for the c-card because I truly believe that the majority of the human population is too dumb to learn something as simple (but most importantly) as "Never hold your breath" on their own.
So instead of letting kill themselves we let them run our dive training agencies so that every one dives like they do.
The industry is severly misusing and abusing theis c-card business if you ask me.
JohnCollins
Guest
You obviously hit a nerve, but instead of getting flamed, everyone agrees with you!
I sort of do, too. . .except I have the kind of personality that makes me want to learn everything I can about any subject I'm interested in, and I'm a voracious reader. Sounds like most folks on this board. I also think I have more than a modicum of common sense. . . common sense also seems to abound on this board. And I like to learn from other people, so I seek out people who are experts at something I want to become expert at and I listen to them. Most posters here appear to be self-reliant, self-starting, open-minded, thoughtful folks.
So we don't need C-cards!
Now the rest of the world population, on the other hand
. Half the population can't find their a$$ with a map, a compass, and a search warrant. Either they remove themselves from the gene pool under tragic circumstances, or they need proper instruction. If they get proper instruction in Toledo and want to dive in Australia, how is the poor dive operator supposed to know if they're a member of this board. . .or some lugnut hardly more intelligent than a sack of hammer handles?? The C-card gives that guy (or gal) at least some indication that the person he's renting a tank full of air to knows how to attach his regulator and open the valve.
It's a necessary evil. It doesn't prove the card holder is competent, and obviously a non-card holder can be extremely competent, and the bright and self-motivated can teach themselves. But with the millions of recreational divers trotting all over the globe diving with perfect strangers, we just gotta have C-cards. We gotta. That's all there is to it. If we don't, the lawyers kill the scuba industry and the governments run them until things are REALLY foo-cocked-ta. It ain't right, wrong, good, bad, fair or unfair. . .it's just the way it's gotta be.
It must have been better diving in 1957. . .sigh. Good post, though, Savitar. Great read all the way through.
I sort of do, too. . .except I have the kind of personality that makes me want to learn everything I can about any subject I'm interested in, and I'm a voracious reader. Sounds like most folks on this board. I also think I have more than a modicum of common sense. . . common sense also seems to abound on this board. And I like to learn from other people, so I seek out people who are experts at something I want to become expert at and I listen to them. Most posters here appear to be self-reliant, self-starting, open-minded, thoughtful folks.
So we don't need C-cards!
Now the rest of the world population, on the other hand
. Half the population can't find their a$$ with a map, a compass, and a search warrant. Either they remove themselves from the gene pool under tragic circumstances, or they need proper instruction. If they get proper instruction in Toledo and want to dive in Australia, how is the poor dive operator supposed to know if they're a member of this board. . .or some lugnut hardly more intelligent than a sack of hammer handles?? The C-card gives that guy (or gal) at least some indication that the person he's renting a tank full of air to knows how to attach his regulator and open the valve.It's a necessary evil. It doesn't prove the card holder is competent, and obviously a non-card holder can be extremely competent, and the bright and self-motivated can teach themselves. But with the millions of recreational divers trotting all over the globe diving with perfect strangers, we just gotta have C-cards. We gotta. That's all there is to it. If we don't, the lawyers kill the scuba industry and the governments run them until things are REALLY foo-cocked-ta. It ain't right, wrong, good, bad, fair or unfair. . .it's just the way it's gotta be.
It must have been better diving in 1957. . .sigh. Good post, though, Savitar. Great read all the way through.
That's true. However, we want to be extra careful. We certainly don't benefit as it probably costs some small amount of business.
First off I want to thank everybody for responding to my post!
I've learned some new prespectives, and that's always a good thing.
My initial point is that the money part has gotten out of hand.
It seems that the diving industry is being a bit hypocritical were and when they draw the line for my safety.
As far as life support equipment goes, I've bought 7 tanks, 2 tech style BCs, a dry suit and 6 regulators in the past two years, and the only plastic card I had to show says VISA on it.
Same with a little Bauer compressor, The VISA card got it here in 3 days.
I've not been in a shop yet that refused to sell me a $200 reg or a $500 FFM, but draw the line at a $2 air fill.
Hookah diving (powered snorkel) has never been regulated, some caribean dive boats will let anyone try. Surface supplied air shares a lot of the dangers with SCUBA, and then some.
There again is the $$$$, if you pay for the charter the gray area gets greener.
As far as the mortality rate goes, that's nice, but how about guns? No certification/class time needed for a rifle or shotgun, in some states (Georgia) not even for a pistol. Only Mr. Cash, Uncle VISA, or Miss Mastercard. These things a a bit more worrisome than an air fill...
Whenever you deal with the public you must expect to get sued. I was talking to the CEO of an experimental (kit) airplane company. He's been sued for stuff he didn't make, just it fit on his plane. Regardless if he was wrong or right, he had to pay his laywers, the suit had to be defended, and an out of court settlement (no guilt) was reached so that the litigation would end. See everyone looks for who has the deepest pockets, either you give the money to the courts and lawyers and fight for years, or settle and make things go away.
The C-card will not protect you from friviolous lawsuits. Did you check how old his cert was and did he keep up with refresher courses? Did you verify the name with the person? Did you ask if he had a pre-existing medical condition? There's a million ways to twist this to suit the plaintiff.
Again thanks, I was so scared I was going to be flammed out on my butt.
I've learned some new prespectives, and that's always a good thing.
My initial point is that the money part has gotten out of hand.
It seems that the diving industry is being a bit hypocritical were and when they draw the line for my safety.
As far as life support equipment goes, I've bought 7 tanks, 2 tech style BCs, a dry suit and 6 regulators in the past two years, and the only plastic card I had to show says VISA on it.
Same with a little Bauer compressor, The VISA card got it here in 3 days.
I've not been in a shop yet that refused to sell me a $200 reg or a $500 FFM, but draw the line at a $2 air fill.
Hookah diving (powered snorkel) has never been regulated, some caribean dive boats will let anyone try. Surface supplied air shares a lot of the dangers with SCUBA, and then some.
There again is the $$$$, if you pay for the charter the gray area gets greener.
As far as the mortality rate goes, that's nice, but how about guns? No certification/class time needed for a rifle or shotgun, in some states (Georgia) not even for a pistol. Only Mr. Cash, Uncle VISA, or Miss Mastercard. These things a a bit more worrisome than an air fill...
Whenever you deal with the public you must expect to get sued. I was talking to the CEO of an experimental (kit) airplane company. He's been sued for stuff he didn't make, just it fit on his plane. Regardless if he was wrong or right, he had to pay his laywers, the suit had to be defended, and an out of court settlement (no guilt) was reached so that the litigation would end. See everyone looks for who has the deepest pockets, either you give the money to the courts and lawyers and fight for years, or settle and make things go away.
The C-card will not protect you from friviolous lawsuits. Did you check how old his cert was and did he keep up with refresher courses? Did you verify the name with the person? Did you ask if he had a pre-existing medical condition? There's a million ways to twist this to suit the plaintiff.
Again thanks, I was so scared I was going to be flammed out on my butt.
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