Can A NAUI DM Assist A PADI Class

[demed]

...there is virtually no difference between agencies. The difference in the training philosophy is minimal as well and certainly does not affect the bottom line which is to certify divers....

I thought the philosophy of your agency was SO superior to the philosophy of other agencies because it leaves you "freedom" and "does not commercialize" and "raises the bar of training" - with your statement you just confirmed that it's simply cheap marketing.

i rest my case.

 

[tomfcrist]

Nice deflection.. But we are talking about the common core capabilities of a DM assisting in a class...not teaching a class. The instructor is still overall responsible for the learning objectives and adherence to standards.

As a naui instructor I do have creative freedom to design any course to exceed agency standards. I can decide to raise the bar or add learning objectives...but that has nothing to do with the use of a dive pro from an outside agency as an assistant...because that person isn't responsible for what happens during the class...I am.

You seem bitter about something. Maybe you should do some reflection and self assessment.
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood"

 

[Peter Guy]

As a PADI instructor, and one who has taken several NAUI classes, I find this thread funny and tragic at the same time. Funny, in that "the usual suspects" make the same snide comments they usually make concerning that "other" agency -- tragic in that "the usual suspects" make the same snide comments....

I'll admit I'm not at all sure WHY PADI won't allow an otherwise qualified person (DM, AI, Dive Con, Instructor, etc.) be a "Certified Assistant" to a PADI instructor during any PADI class. The one rationale I've heard, and honestly may have some validity, is that PADI has a pretty strict set of standards as to what a CA may, and may not, do while not under the "direct supervision" of the instructor. I have no idea what a NAUI CA may do while supervising students independently of the instructor so I'm willing to cut PADI slack here. (Perhaps we can all imagine that plaintiff's attorney questioning the NAUI DM -- "You mean to tell me you didn't know you weren't allowed to take poor Jane's mask off during her first Open Water dive that led to her terribly painful hangnail?")

So, assuming THAT is the reason, then it seems to me that PADI should allow a "cross-over" after completing the Standards session of an IDC or DM class. But that's just me.

Regarding the "requirement" that PADI staff "sell things" -- well, not really -- and even if it were true, so what? I hope ALL people involved with instruction encourage students to get more involved with diving -- buy their own gear (one thing we know is that a person is much more likely to dive if they have their own gear); go diving (another thing we know is that people who don't dive -- well, DON'T dive and their skills atrophy); take trips, whether local or not; continue learning and improving. None of these things are bad and if we, the people who are involved with the education system, don't encourage our students to dive, who will?

There is NOTHING WRONG with selling the right thing to the right person. Or, as was true in my former direct marketing life, it is only "junk mail" if it isn't something you want or need.

 

[ScubaDocER]

I have no idea what a NAUI CA may do while supervising students independently of the instructor so I'm willing to cut PADI slack here. (Perhaps we can all imagine that plaintiff's attorney questioning the NAUI DM -- "You mean to tell me you didn't know you weren't allowed to take poor Jane's mask off during her first Open Water dive that led to her terribly painful hangnail?")

Hello Peter. To the best of my knowledge, there are no actions that a CA working under a NAUI Instructor can do independent of the Instructors wishes. Everything that occurs during a NAUI training session is under the supervision of the Instructor. Even the compass skill, which may not require DIRECT supervision, can only be done with the Instructors approval. The Instructor should make that clear to all of their assistants so that the hypothetical scenario you mentioned does not occur. I would hope that most agencies would have a similar approach. IMHO it is very dangerous to allow someone other than the supervising Instructor to dictate what occurs in a class.

 

[boulderjohn]

Regarding the "requirement" that PADI staff "sell things" -- well, not really -- and even if it were true, so what? I hope ALL people involved with instruction encourage students to get more involved with diving -- buy their own gear (one thing we know is that a person is much more likely to dive if they have their own gear); go diving (another thing we know is that people who don't dive -- well, DON'T dive and their skills atrophy); take trips, whether local or not; continue learning and improving. None of these things are bad and if we, the people who are involved with the education system, don't encourage our students to dive, who will?

There is NOTHING WRONG with selling the right thing to the right person. Or, as was true in my former direct marketing life, it is only "junk mail" if it isn't something you want or need.

In my experience, the push to sell gear is not so much a product of the agency but rather a product of the policy of the shop for which the instructor works. I taught PADI classes for one shop in our town, and I now teach for another PADI shop in our town. In neither case have I felt any pressure from the store management to sell gear.

I left that first shop for several reasons, but the primary one was that they shifted to a different agency, and under the tutelage of the owner of that agency, they made selling gear the primary purpose of instruction. In a workshop I attended before leaving the shop, the agency owner explained that the sole purpose of instruction was to get customers for gear sales, and that should be the focus of instruction. I won't go into the details of what instructors were to do, but I will say that about a year later one of the shop's most veteran instructors was let go. He could not change his ways, and management duly noted that his students were not buying enough gear.

If a shop owner wants the instructors to push gear sales to improve the shop's bottom line, that is going to happen, and it is going to happen regardless of what agency is involved.

 

[Peter Guy]

ScubaDocER -- You may have misunderstood what I wrote about what a NAUI DM might do without knowing PADI standards. Let's assume that a NAUI Instructor could tell his NAUI DM to take the mask off a student while on "a tour" of the dive site. (Note -- I have no idea if that is possible, but let's just assume it is.). That would leave the NAUI DM with the notion that it was OK to do this and when the PADI instructor says, "Go take them on tour" without further elaboration, the NAUI DM could think "I'll do this because my NAUI instructor said it was OK.". BUT, this is NOT permitted per PADI standards -- even thought it was (assumed here!) to be OK by NAUI standards.

This would not be the case of a NAUI DM acting contrary to express directions of the PADI instructor but merely NOT being told what the PADI instructor assumed due to the PADI Instructor's understanding of the PADI standards.

Is that clearer than mud?

 

[ScubaDocER]

ScubaDocER -- You may have misunderstood what I wrote about what a NAUI DM might do without knowing PADI standards. Let's assume that a NAUI Instructor could tell his NAUI DM to take the mask off a student while on "a tour" of the dive site. (Note -- I have no idea if that is possible, but let's just assume it is.). That would leave the NAUI DM with the notion that it was OK to do this and when the PADI instructor says, "Go take them on tour" without further elaboration, the NAUI DM could think "I'll do this because my NAUI instructor said it was OK.". BUT, this is NOT permitted per PADI standards -- even thought it was (assumed here!) to be OK by NAUI standards.

This would not be the case of a NAUI DM acting contrary to express directions of the PADI instructor but merely NOT being told what the PADI instructor assumed due to the PADI Instructor's understanding of the PADI standards.

Is that clearer than mud?

I think we're on the same page Peter. And I understand your point. I guess I was just saying that whoever the Instructor is, PADI or NAUI, that they should clearly define what the role of the assistant is prior to any in water activities. This would be especially true if the assistant comes from another agency. I think that if that's done, then it shouldn't matter much which agency the assistant comes from. The Instructor would dictate all activities and the assistant would feel comfortable in that working environment. I worked with a PDIC DM and we had a long talk about what I wanted her to do. She actually attended a few classes as an observer before helping me in an official capacity. We never did get into the specifics between our two agencies. But the working relationship worked out wonderfully.

 

[demed]

...But we are talking about the common core capabilities of a DM assisting in a class..."

Common Core? this deserves its own thread

 

[Diver0001]

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everyone take a deep breath.

Remind yourselves that agency bashing isn't allowed here.

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[bl6394]

Complete horsecrap. The assistant is exactly that... The assistant. The assistant is there to help supervise and control the group. Even if the instructor has the assistant demo skills...there is virtually no difference between agencies. The difference in the training philosophy is minimal as well and certainly does not affect the bottom line which is to certify divers. If you can tell me the real difference in the training program for a padi DM vs a naui DM i would be amazed. Hint hint...it has already been pointed out in this thread.

Tom - I agree with the spirit of your statement. But when looking at risk mitigation, there are differences in standards that could be relevant. From a risk mitigation point of view - you can't have CA's who are unfamiliar with the agency standards participating as CA's.

From my limited experience with NAUI CA's I'll offer this example. We had a NAUI DM who was crossing over by doing a PADI IDC. The CD asked him to shadow me, and I had him do a simulated CESA briefing for another CA acting as a student, while under my direct supervision. He instructed the diver to spit out his regulator at the beginning of the CESA swim. I immediately corrected him and reminded the diver that under PADI's standards - we must retain the second stage in our mouth. He argued that under NAUI's standards - the second stage is supposed to be out of the mouth. I reminded him of PADI's standards (in the Guide to Teaching regarding retaining the second stage during the CESA) and offered two reasons why this is a prudent practice (e.g. prevent the inhalation of water, and possibly getting additional air during the ascent as pressure is reduced.)

We probably agree that the chance of this sort of minor mis-communication affecting the safety of a diver under a CA's supervision is pretty remote. But given that there COULD be a problem, it would seem to give PADI reasonable grounds to forbid the practice of using CA's from other agencies within their programs.