conshelf se2 rebuild kits?

[Six2Life]

I've had many dozens of SE3's and 22's apart and never seen a removable orifice in a Conshelf.

I have a SE3 serial# CAK1187 that has the removable orifice. The sticker on the computer that was attached to it showed it was produced in 1998.

 

[NCadiver]

You know as well as I do, the parts for life is a gimmick. The total cost of a parts kit is just a few dollars at most but when they sell it, the mark up is unreal. The "free parts" are the bait to keep you on the service hook for years, get off the hook and they burn you good for leaving with high parts cost.

I don't need any engineering data, it's easy for any half way competent tech to determine if a part needs replacing or not. LP seats take a set which is most of the reason you replace them, not because they are going bad, modern materials simply do not deteriorate that fast. The Orings in a second stage are ambient seals, with almost no pressure differential across them and they have a service life of many years in much worse service than scuba regs, auto brake calipers for example. Exhaust valves and diaphragms are either torn or not, modern silicone materials do not go hard like the old rubber ones and if they do, it will show up when the reg is tested.

I can’t believe how narc people can be on the surface. To put you back on the subject if you’re doing the service and manufacture are giving you the part’s for free why are you taking the short cut and not replacing all parts in the kit. Your second short cut you won’t do the test studies to prove your statements. I bet you’re one of those who slap a VIP sticker on the cylinder without inspecting the cylinder because you think you know better then the manufacture.
One other question why aren’t you at the LDS repairing regulator for free so you local diver can get a better price on servicing their regulators?

 

[Six2Life]

I can’t believe how narc people can be on the surface. To put you back on the subject if you’re doing the service and manufacture are giving you the part’s for free why are you taking the short cut and not replacing all parts in the kit. Your second short cut you won’t do the test studies to prove your statements. I bet you’re one of those who slap a VIP sticker on the cylinder without inspecting the cylinder because you think you know better then the manufacture.
One other question why aren’t you at the LDS repairing regulator for free so you local diver can get a better price on servicing their regulators?

Anyone with 2 functioning brain cells to rub together can easily tell that the free parts program is a joke. Blindly tearing into a regulator to replace parts when it doesn't actually need it is more likely to cause harm than good.

I've heard on more than one occasion of shop techs flipping seats. If the customer is lucky they won't even charge them for the service kit they didn't use.

 

[herman]

Ya know, insulting me never works. It has been my experience that when someone don't have a valid argument or they can't substantiate their position with facts, they resort intimidation tactics like yelling (large text), swearing and insults.

Now to answer your questions. The kits are not free, someone pays for them. If not the person who keeps up the annual service, it's the people who skip a service and pay grossly over priced amounts for the kits or the people who chose to do their own service and get charged way too much for a couple of orings and a few other inexpensive parts. As for testing, if I needed testing to determine the results I am quite capable of doing the testing and would if needs be but second stages are simple devices that I can quite easily evaluate without a lot of data. Testing and troubleshooting of electronic and mechanical devices is how I have made a living for the last 30 years so I am pretty good at evaluating problems. Do you have data to prove me wrong ? If you do, I would love to read it, I am always willing to learn.
I don't do VIPs, I don't have the training although I have been offered the class a couple of times, so no I don't "slap stickers on cylinders".
Instead of making the LDS money, I prefer to spend my time teaching others to be self sufficient and to increasing my knowledge of regulators...

 

[Paladin]

To believe that the tech at the LDS replaces all the parts in a regulator every year is to be naive and uninformed. Most of the time, reg service means that the tech disassembles the regulator, looks it over to see if the rubber parts look worn and eyeballs the HP seat for damage. HP seats typically last for years, so they aren't replaced at every servicing. The springs and other metal parts are reused unless corrosion damaged, which is rare. One misconception amongst the unknowing is that the regulator is overhauled with all new parts every year. Nope. They are usually just inspected, cleaned and adjusted. Parts are generally not replaced unless worn. The one exception is the LP seat in the second stage. The tech will either flip it or replace it if both sides have been used. The first stage diaphragm, second stage diaphragm and second stage exhaust valve are designed to last a very long time and are reused.

A regulator might be "serviced" every year but, unless seriously abused, not overhauled but about every five years. Maybe longer if it has been handled gently. I have regulators here that are thirty to forty years old that have their original HP seats and diaphragms in the first stage and the diaphragms and exhaust valves in the second stage because they are still in perfect working condition.

Herman is right, the so-called "free parts for life" is a scam to drum up business for LDS. Of course they can give free parts when the only parts replaced are maybe a tiny little LP seat and a couple of O-rings.

When I bought my first single hose regulator (a US Divers Aquarius) the LDS owner told me about the free parts for life thing, then told me not to waste my time. He was honest and up front about it and said that it was intended solely for the purpose of insuring some sort of steady income for the dealers. He then showed me how to disassemble my regulator, how to clean it and what to look for that could cause problems. That was in 1976. I have replaced the LP seat, a few O-rings and (once) the first stage filter over the past thirty-six years and that regulator is still as safe and dependable as the day I first brought it home.

I service all my regulators not because I want to save money, but because I want to know that they are in top working order and will function as expected when needed. I have never had a regulator failure. The only time I have ever experienced a problem with a regulator was the one time I had my old double hose DA Aquamaster "professionally" serviced at a dive shop. It breathed like crap and made some pretty weird noises. After paying for "service," I ended up having to re-service it myself to make it work.

Servicing your own regulators is not "cutting corners." It is knowing your own equipment intimately and knowing that it has been properly serviced.


Oh, and the VIP is not an edict from the manufacturer. A tank's maker has nothing to say about it. The DOT requires that tanks be hydroed every five years but the VIP inspection is not a legal requirement. It became an industry standard because some divers failed to take proper care of their tanks and let them corrode inside.

 

[keyshunter]

I can’t believe how narc people can be on the surface. To put you back on the subject if you’re doing the service and manufacture are giving you the part’s for free why are you taking the short cut and not replacing all parts in the kit. Your second short cut you won’t do the test studies to prove your statements. I bet you’re one of those who slap a VIP sticker on the cylinder without inspecting the cylinder because you think you know better then the manufacture.
One other question why aren’t you at the LDS repairing regulator for free so you local diver can get a better price on servicing their regulators?

You appear to be the one who is narced. Or, is it the Kool-Aid?

 

[NCadiver]

Herman you went on tangent about the service so I responded sorry it look like a insult. I don't know about you but I have not pay for a sevice kit in over a decade I use the free program and I sevice my own regulator and the shop service my wife regulator and I don't pay for that service. I guess the joke on you on the parts kits.

Six2life you are tearing into the regulator blind any do you get the updates for the regulator? A couple of years back a certain company had a problem HP seat and another one were now it one thicker o-ring instead of two thin ones? And you are not the one who decides what parts need to be change that the manufacture and the insurance companies.Even Hog requires you to attend a course so they have your name so they can update you on changes and updates.

Paladin I never said that "Servicing your own regulators is not "cutting corners." It is knowing your own equipment intimately and knowing that it has been properly serviced." What I said not using all the part in the kit and not following the proceduces is taking a short cut. That the diffrence between a regulator tech and wannabe tech.
It’s so funny how a dive shop who service a regulator at least one a week all year long can screw up a regulator service yet you (the dinner table tech) who only service it once in a while can do it so perfectly . The other funny thing is you’re such good tech but some reason dive you leave the dive shop with a malfunctioning regulator that you paid to have working.

But it comes down to this the manufactures have instruction and procedures and a kit on how to service the life support equipment and being anarchist you can follow instruction so they do want you servicing the life support equipment.

Last thing as you say all dive shop a crooked and over charge for products, and since the dive shop you buying parts from cutting corners and violating their dealer agreement not to sell part to end consumers and they also hard up for money what stop them from cleaning up used parts and put back into the package and selling them to you?

 

[Paladin]

1. I have the Aqua-Lung service manual and follow it. It does not say to replace all the parts in the kit. It says to replace worn or damaged parts.

2. I take my regulators apart every time I return from a dive trip to check them out. It only takes an hour or so for each reg and it's an enjoyable way to spend some time. They do not have a chance to develop problems. My reason in doing my own service is not to save money. It's because I want to know my equipment is in perfect working order. If someone else works on it, it means I have to trust that they did it right and dive on faith.

3. It was around 40 years ago that I took my first double hose to a shop for service because I was away from home and it would have been inconvenient to do it myself. The shop did not have a pool to check it out in and I didn't know it hadn't been serviced correctly until I went diving. I should have just waited until I got home to do it myself. When I took it apart, I found that the tech had replaced my HP seat with the wrong type.

5. The LDS I usually go to knows I service my own regs and supplies me with parts, as I need them, for a very reasonable price. That shop is also the only place I would trust to work on any of my regs if the need should arise.

6. I will reiterate: Techs do not replace all the parts in the kit at every service. There is no need to. They replace only what is needed.

Finally, could you please check your spelling, grammar and syntax when you post? It's a little follow what you're trying to say at times.

 

[herman]

Herman you went on tangent about the service so I responded sorry it look like a insult. I don't know about you but I have not pay for a sevice kit in over a decade I use the free program and I sevice my own regulator and the shop service my wife regulator and I don't pay for that service. I guess the joke on you on the parts kits.

It was you who took this thread off on a you should not service your own regs unless you works for a shop tangent. Using large or bold type is considered yelling on a board such as this and calling me narced and accusing me of slapping on VIP stickers is hard not to consider a direct attack but no matter.

Not paying for kits or service is great for you, lots of us would love that. It is speculation on my part but sounds like the LDS you work/instruct for is supplementing your compensation with free labor and parts. That is certainly their option and nice benefit that other shops could do for their staff. I get a good number of similar benefits from the shop I DM for that other customers don't.

Six2life you are tearing into the regulator blind any do you get the updates for the regulator? A couple of years back a certain company had a problem HP seat and another one were now it one thicker o-ring instead of two thin ones? And you are not the one who decides what parts need to be change that the manufacture and the insurance companies.Even Hog requires you to attend a course so they have your name so they can update you on changes and updates.

If manufactures would not hide their information and open their classes to the public this would not even be an issue. If you go back and look at the changes, the actual problems were minor and they were correcting nescience problems, not major issues, besides, when you get a new service kit, the revised parts will be in it. If the manufactures would make the service information and parts kits available to the owners of the equipment, this would not be a problem. With the internet, there is no reason that the information is not available except to protect the parts and service market for their retailers.

Paladin I never said that "Servicing your own regulators is not "cutting corners." It is knowing your own equipment intimately and knowing that it has been properly serviced." What I said not using all the part in the kit and not following the proceduces is taking a short cut. That the diffrence between a regulator tech and wannabe tech.
It’s so funny how a dive shop who service a regulator at least one a week all year long can screw up a regulator service yet you (the dinner table tech) who only service it once in a while can do it so perfectly . The other funny thing is you’re such good tech but some reason dive you leave the dive shop with a malfunctioning regulator that you paid to have working.

Just because we don't do "at least one regulator a week all year long" but instead do the same regulators year after year does not mean that we can not be proficient at it. It may take us longer but we do not have any distractions that a shop tech who also deals with customers, fills tanks and cleans the stock room does, nor do we have a boss who wants us to slap it back together quick so we can get on to the next reg or fix the compressor. We can spend as much time as we like and pay much more attention to details than a multitasking shop employee.
I can't speak for others but I average about 1 reg a week, however unlike shop techs, I not only service regs, I restore them. I take old mistreated regs that were long ago dropped from the list of regs with available parts and return them to service. Many of them I can’t find service manuals for. Last week I manufactured a LP seat holder for a long time obsolete regulator so odds are I know more about the physics involved in regulators than the majority of "professional" techs who took a half day no fail seminar and blindly follows the service manual. At work, we call those guys card monkeys, they “fix” equipment by swapping card but have no clue why they swapped the card other than some flow chart in a manual told them to.
If the shop employees do so much better of a job than we do, why is the DIY board filled with members who started doing their own service because they were tired of getting poor service. Don’t get me wrong, there are many very good professional reg technicians out there, I have the good fortune of being friends with several of them but for every good tech there are just as many poor ones.

 

[txaggie08]

NCadiver: I've been servicing high and low pressure regulation systems for better than fifteen years, I did it professionally for a while to. air regulators, be they scuba, paintball, scba, or commercial, are not that complicated a piece of machinery. You are GROSSLY misinformed if you think you're getting an entire service kit every time the guy at the shop opens your reg, and apparently have absolutely zero idea what you're talking about in reference to actually servicing the thing.