deep diver

[loosebits]

why give the data "tables" to a ow diver that he not suppose to use? why not just go ahead and give him the eanx tables and the deco too?

The tables that came with my OW class (the US Navy tables) had deco schedules on the back. Why? Well if you screwed up royally and ended up in deco, wouldn't it be nice to know how to get to the surface safely.

 

[The Kraken]

Keep in mind that no agency states that a new open water diver CAN'T descend below 60', it is RECOMMENDED that they not do so due to inexperience.

The max depth is on the RDP (Recreational Dive Planner) because it is the limit to which it is RECOMMENDED that a recreational diver not exceed.

Please understand that I don't condone dangerous and ill thought out actions, but a diver can do anyting s/he desires. The deciding factor of a diver's actions is whether or not s/he would like to return to the surface of the water without having sustained any detrimental medical conditions, if s/he does, indeed, return to the surface at all.

the K

 

[Richesb]

No "course" prepares you to be a deep diver! Experience in the company of a safe experienced diver combined with the classroom knowledge thrpough any diving agency is the path that sould be followed.
Diving at depth is a great way to see things (deep wrecks) that can only truely be appreciated by doing it. It should never be taken lightly as it always carries with it the danger that any accident/mishap/ equiptment failure/ bad judgement could be fatal.
It's not how many dives you make - it's how many times you surface.

 

[in_cavediver]

yeah but if the basic ow table only showed the info for 60' they would be less likely to go below that. Then the next cert. could have the info for the deeper. I was just thinking safety for new divers.

This is actually a common theme in OW training. The OW class has been watered down with the idea to sell Con-Ed classes to make up the difference. For subjects, simply browse for the latest 'What I didn't learn in OW class' or 'How to improve the OW class thread'. The gist of them are that the only way to truly fix it is greatly increase the cost/length of the class to build expierence and add skills/information when appropriate. (similar to the club system oversees).

Now, I am a major proponent of providing a lot of information. I think new divers should have access to full tables, including some with deco schedules. They should have fundemental idea's about decompression models even if the profiles they dive initially don't 'need' it to be safe. The point of the class is to teach them how to use the information they have and how to make good decisions. Arbitraly hiding information is counter to goals of education. This method doesn't prevent new divers from doing a 200' trimix dive in a month and nor should it. People should have the right to do stupid things to themselves. Its a cost of freedom.

 

[jpcpat]

The RDp was developed for Non-deco diving. Given short NDL's 130ft is a reasonable, if somewhat arbitrary limit. This is a table developed for divers, not training. Many divers are qualified to go deep, and the tool is useful.

Let's not give anyone ideas about tables that go only to 60ft. I don't want to have to show an Aow card to pay $30 for tables that go to 100 ft and then a dee specialty to pay $30 for tables that go to 130 ft.

As a practical matter, any number of instructors will tell OW divers what the limits are, but realize that divers will exceed them, and add extra info at the OW level.

 

[Hoyden]

yeah but if the basic ow table only showed the info for 60' they would be less likely to go below that. Then the next cert. could have the info for the deeper. I was just thinking safety for new divers.

I promise you that if a training agency tried to sell a new set of tables for each class (OW, AOW, Deep), the hue and cry about profiteering would be deafening.

 

[Hoyden]

Ok. Well, it's not the industry that is giving people enough rope to hang themselves with. It's the instructor who didn't explain the issues well enough, the DM that exceeded the diver's experience level, and the diver's for not using common sense.

What makes you sure that the instructor didn't do a good job explaining? There is NO way an instructor can force students to follow safe diving practices after the class ends. What makes you so sure that a divemaster led her down to 100'? She and she alone is responsible to dive within her training and experience level.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

After assisting with a great deal of classes and with alot of different people I have to agree with Hoyden. I've had students who after their certs would not dream of going below 60 ft. But then there are the ones who went to cozumel and did the 120 ft dives that so many ops take new divers on. Then there were the few who after finding out the profile insisted that the DM stay within the recommended limits and you know what? They did. Every one of these people got the same instruction and admonishments from the instructor and us DM's during their training. What made the difference was their attitudes, subsequent experience, and their own choices. No DM or instructor can force a person to abide by the guidelines any more than they can force them to break them. If divers who have been properly trained acccording to their agency's standards choose to flaunt those recommendations and subject themselves to the added risk then they must deal with the consequences. Unfortunately many times these nimrods put others at risk as well.

 

[TSandM]

No "course" prepares you to be a deep diver!

I disagree with this. I took a three day course from 5thD-X that is specifically DESIGNED to prepare you for deeper diving (in this case, to the 100 foot level). It covers gas management and gas planning, Nitrox, team skills, and emergency management at depth. It was an excellent course, far better than my "Deep" specialty. But it was not a course I could have taken right out of OW, nor should I have. Nor should I have gone to 130 feet on my 10th dive in Molokini Crater, but I didn't know any better, because I didn't know what I didn't know.

I don't think "deep" should be part of OW, although I think gas management should be. Not giving people tables that cover depths they really shouldn't go to would be like not telling them about what to do if they inadvertently go into deco -- It would be a failure to recognize what happens in the real world.

 

[TomP]

This is actually a common theme in OW training. The OW class has been watered down with the idea to sell Con-Ed classes to make up the difference. For subjects, simply browse for the latest 'What I didn't learn in OW class' or 'How to improve the OW class thread'. The gist of them are that the only way to truly fix it is greatly increase the cost/length of the class to build expierence and add skills/information when appropriate. (similar to the club system oversees).

Now, I am a major proponent of providing a lot of information. I think new divers should have access to full tables, including some with deco schedules. They should have fundemental idea's about decompression models even if the profiles they dive initially don't 'need' it to be safe. The point of the class is to teach them how to use the information they have and how to make good decisions. Arbitraly hiding information is counter to goals of education. This method doesn't prevent new divers from doing a 200' trimix dive in a month and nor should it. People should have the right to do stupid things to themselves. Its a cost of freedom.

I agree entirely - except i'm not sure it should be costly to fix

The only up side of getting old is the ability to remember history. When I got certified back in 77 there was a far greater emphasis on diving physics, physiology, and a common sense approach to gaining experience. There was no debate about the recreational limit, it was 130 feet. A couple of years back I was stunned when an operator in the Dominican Republic told me my wife couldn't do any dives below 60 feet because she only had an OW cert. Her log book and my laughter did little to change his mind. Fortunately it became a non-issue because she had no interest in the one dive that was deeper than 60 feet.

I honestly can't wrap my brain around the notion that providing more pertinent information in the proper context could be anything but beneficial. Freedom and common sense have to be allowed to prevail.

Relative to fixing the classes I think its more about content than including more diving to build experience. The PADI Deep manual is 60 pages and i'd guess half of that is actual content, it shouldn't be onerous to include it in say AOW. I'd say OW but I think that would never happen from either an economic or fear of litigation standpoint.