Etiquette of “NO, you are not diving with us”

[Northeastwrecks]

In the case you describe, I might tell the person that you and your buddy are new divers, that you are still learning the ropes, and that you don't feel comfortable buddying up with him due to the extra task loading. You don't need to mention that the basis for the extra task loading is that he is a walking disaster.

Other reasons may include that you've got specific objectives for the dive (training, reaching a particular point on or in a wreck, finding a particular marine critter) and you don't believe that changing the team at this point will allow you to meet those objectives.

If all else fails, just say no. You don't need to respond in any more detail than that.

 

[piikki]

I have seen a lot of threads were newbies are following the more experienced ones. (Which is great and I hope some local ones would turn up from somewhere too... I thought this would be an interesting angle because it is a more experienced diver ‘lead by' newbies. Buddy and I should not have been a desirable for anyone to stick onto. Not that this guy seemed to care who it was as long as there was that float… that alone made me uneasy.

I do not think that we should be teaching anyone anything yet because we are probably still hazardous material ourselves. (One can always learn from us but we shouldn’t be ‘teaching’). And it sure would be nice if he had asked ‘is it OK I dive with you?’ rather than ‘do you have a float’ or something as vague… Or maybe I am not experienced yet because I felt nearly like I was trapped. Like do loners use these lines knowing how hard it is to say no when you are that far in the process? If he had asked us “May I dive as your buddy’ before gearing up it would have been easier to explain that because of our experience we can’t quite keep track of two buddies at the same time.

 

[The Kraken]

Everyone does things differently, but on occasion I've asked to buddy up as a third.

But when I did so I expressly made it a point to let the divers know my level of experience and that I would be following THEIR dive plan. I also let them know the reason, in general terms, of why I had no buddy.

At this point it is their option to include or exclude me from THEIR dive. Had they denied my request, I would have taken no offense and gone on about my merry way.

But alluding to a previous post, it was THEIR dive.

the K

 

[piikki]

Northeastwreck – I think you are starting to give an idea of something ‘suits all situations’ kind of answer. I want a back-pocket, automatic response so I do not need to start hesitating and feeling crappy when the moment comes (since I know I feel kinda bad for the person who possibly wont get wet). Instead of using ‘we are too inexperienced’ which is something that can be countered with kindness or eg by someone who actually has less dives, it is maybe better to think of an answer in the line of “I have a training sequence going on, and can’t break it”. It can be seen as a bit stiff but it’s very hard to crack because one can just refer to being a rule freak about it. With training dive it will be easy to drop even those guys who’ll say that they will not interfere but just hang around because I have no trouble admitting that extra audience adds to pressure

 

[Santa]

Off course all the rescue books stipulate - avoid getting into the situaion in the first place ;0)

If you don't wanna dive with a guy because he is a danger to himself and his surroundings you are really just passing on a problem to someone else. Sometimes the most caring thing is to be honest - and because that can be hard to do people will often respect it. Of sorts.

When I have to say something to a person that I know they are not going to want to hear I try to comment not on their personality, intelligence, looks or general capability but on exactly, what it is I honestly feel they are doing wrong. I try to be factual and give clear examples. If I can I will try to outline a path of solution to the problem, just to underline that its nothing personal. Faced with extra work most people will either do the sensible thing or back off.

Example:
- I would rather not go on this drift dive with you .... because I think you need to work on your buoynancy and finning technique a bit more.
- You did have three runaways yesterday and I feel it's too risky for either of us. My assessment could be wrong but this is how I feel and I think it's most fair that I'm honest with you.
- When you've done more dives and worked on those skills some more I'd be happy to go with you. For now I suggest you join up with the guys who are going on the shallow wreck, which is a great site - or we could there together on dive 2.

People will often accept polite criticism of a specific, factual thing that they do because that may be changed. The troublemaker is making thin excuses or becoming personal, condemning and criticising people for what they 'are' in a generalized sense ("I won't go because you're a sloppy diver") .

In other words: Respect your instincts and try to find out why they are flashing red. There's always a reason, and mostly it can be communicated without too much heart-break.

 

[Diver0001]

Ok, more of our scenario… we were shore diving, on our SI… a guy approaches us asking if we have a float/flag. We say sure. He asks if we are going back in, and we say we need to burn a bit but we will. He asks a few questions of what’s there because he only dove the beach once. Then he asks could we give him a sign when we go in because he ain’t got a flag, and he’d like to go in same time. We say sure, the area will be pretty much covered by one flag. He takes a look at our bottles and remarks something like ‘good you have same tanks’, and points to a direction saying ‘we are at that picnic table so just wave to me’.

Ok, so fine. Unfortunately, when we wave him in it takes him ages, and we are in the water when we see him coming ALONE! Now we get very uncomfy immediately. I ask him if he is going to solo but he says he is going to tag along. So now we need in a hurry go thru our first threesome check… We ask his hand signs, and check his releases. We ask him how long he’s been diving, and he says he is AOW/4yrs, so basically he is way more experienced than us. But we are kneeling in about 4f of water and his bladder is about to burst with air, he can’t get his fins on and his face is going blue in too tight hood. We ask if he’s alright and he is mumbling. We are supporting him and same time notice he has this crushed neoprene drysuit. Now, we have never been diving with drysuits nor with anyone in a drysuit, so we ask how do we get that air out off him if needed. He says all his air is in the bladder, so that’s OK. He’s getting more purple, so we repeat the question about too tight hood but he shrugs it off.

At this point, I tell him our dive plan and basically taking into account that he has about 4yrs more diving than us, I just tell that if he gets bored when we are doing our drills on our two planned stops it’s kind of his problem but if he thumbs we will have to come up with him, so can he please tell us if he has a sign for just ditching. He says that’s all good. All this time both of us are screaming NONONO – but neither of us can get it said. This guy is sweating his balls off and we want to sent him back to the beach now that he has finally gotten his fins on with both of us supporting him… Gee… He is pleasant, no jerk signs but vague and at no point did he ask one question about our gear/signs/experience etc or if we ever dove in threesome.

Needless to say the dive went south, bad

Ok..... here's my take.

First of all, bad news is bad news. No amount of beating around the bush is going to change that so don't beat around the bush. Just say it.

Secondly, With someone having the kinds of problems you mentioned then you need to treat him like a buddy having a problem and get out the water with him. Once you buddied up with him you're his buddy and you need to call the dive together. You *definitely* don't want to leave him alone all purple on the surface where he could fall unconscious and drown.

Here's what I would have said in your situation.

I'm sorry guys but I'm calling this dive. Dude you're turning purple and we need to get out of the water and get that sorted out first

At this point he may decide to call it a day himself or he might decide to resist you. If he doesn't resist then escort him to shore and see if you can help him .

If he resists you (he might say "I'm ok" or something) than you need repeat the message. Just keep saying. "I'm sorry but I'm not comfortable with this."

does that help?

R..

 

[piikki]

>First of all, bad news is bad news. No amount of beating around the bush is going to change that so don't beat around the bush. Just say it.<

Yeah, I know this would be most efficient way. I wish it will become easier. I KNOW it will be a bit easier having that dive since we got a good scare.

>Once you buddied up with him you're his buddy and you need to call the dive together.<

This is kind of where the core of this problem lies. We had not buddied up with this guy. He bumbled his way to the water (about 50ft from beach since it is shallow) where we are struggling in the chops, waiting and waiting for this buddy PAIR to turn up. We were less than eager to call OUR dive but we certainly did not want ****e happening to him, and repeated ‘are you OK/you don't look OK’ several times. As said, we have no experience with drysuits. Maybe them collars do make you kinda reddish when vertical, maybe this guy’s face was sunburn - he was on holiday. I was very uncomfy of the color but he said it was OK. So I guess that is what you call resisting.

>You *definitely* don't want to leave him alone all purple on the surface where he could fall unconscious and drown.<

This is a beach where lifeguards actually watch for divers too (they whistle even boats off the flags which is great). Also, guy had an adult son on shore, the one we thought was going to be his buddy (and the one I was going to shout to when I surfaced after he vanished on us). However, we were like ‘bugger – I cannot believe we will need to walk this guy back’. We would NOT have called our dive after driving 2hrs to get there, and having waited in dive shop for 3 hrs to have our bottles filled for the day – not just for walking this guy up the hill and educating him. What would have happened, my buddy would have floated her gear, and I would have waited in water since we already have one compromised back (mine), and we need to get to water quickly after we are loaded (yep I am having sore back today because of this episode, so you pay more ways than one). It was already clear this guy wasn’t going to take the message, and I am not going to give anybody tips about drysuit suiting, so we weren’t going to make him any better let alone bring him back to water. He made me feel selfish about diving but I am mighty pissed at him trying to steal our limited diving time by being so out off it.

>If he resists you (he might say "I'm ok" or something) than you need repeat the message. Just keep saying. "I'm sorry but I'm not comfortable with this."<

Some people really do not want to hear this. Being woman, maybe I should just scream that I AM FREAKING OUT WITH YOU and see what happens. Hysterics usually deter guys. Then again if I was comfortable screaming I’d probably have no problem being stern with my NO either

I don't mean to sound (too) defensive but I think there is a limit to the responsibility we need to take too. It is clear we made a bad judgement call taking this guy with us. However, I do not think that if we chose correctly and kicked him off we should have spent ages hearing him resist our opinions and miss our dive. I might be of different opinion if at any point earlier I had agreed to be his buddy. I basically never did, I just never said No. Stupid me.

 

[gfisher4792]

Yeah, just saying straight-out "no" works best, but for a "instant" answer, I suggest going with the, "I'm not comfortable diving with strangers, sorry" type of response.

Now you have me intrigued; any details on the actual dive (hopefully I didn't just miss the description while I was skimming)?

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Another response I like is "I'm sorry, but we'd prefer to keep our buddy team intact for this dive. We can't add a buddy today."

Don't let yourself feel pressured or bullied into taking on someone else. Unless you're being paid for the thrill of escorting other divers, you pick your buddies. IMHO, if you show up at a dive site without a buddy, you'd better be prepared to dive solo or, if there is no one willing to dive with you, go home.

I agree that you don't need to listen to excuses or pleas for reconsideration. If the person insists on acting in that manner, you can tell them that you are not comfortable with their decision making process and that you and your buddy want to be left alone. Polite, but forceful statements should deter all but the most obnoxious person. Once that is done, walk off and start your dive.

I'm also interested in hearing what happened on the dive.

 

[Diver0001]

Yeah, I know this would be most efficient way. I wish it will become easier.

Just start with it. You can decide to do that right here right now. Being direct is always good advice. Just remember that direct and aggressive are not the same thing. I'm being direct with you right now. Do you hate me for it?

We had not buddied up with this guy.

Was he diving with you or wasn't he?

This is a beach where lifeguards actually watch for divers too (they whistle even boats off the flags which is great).

Ok...I don't know if I would be comfortable with this but maybe that's just me.

I can see there is a bit of difference in baggage here too. I'm used to supervising other divers and I've made a gazillion dives so I think I'd rather calling a dive and wasting my my time for someone elses benefit than to risk them having an accident. Scuba accidents can be very serious and most of them happen on or near the surface... so I've learned to never underestimate the world of ****t someone can get into while on scuba and if my intuition is saying to get (someone) out of teh water then I get out.

How would you feel if this poor schmuck passed out and died on the way back to shore so you didn't waste a few hours of your time..... I mean....for crying out loud, he was purple....and purple is not normal.

Some people really do not want to hear this.

When you call the dive, the issue of whether or not someone wants to hear it is irrelevant. The dive is called. Period. Experience and motivation doesn't matter. Anyone can call any dive at any time with no questions asked. That's rule number one of smart diving.

Being woman, maybe I should just scream that I AM FREAKING OUT WITH YOU and see what happens. Hysterics usually deter guys.

LOL.... Maybe. I know some guys who would run away from you if you did that

I don't mean to sound (too) defensive but I think there is a limit to the responsibility we need to take too.

We agree about this but the limit happens before you agree to buddy up. You can always refuse to accept someone as a buddy but once you've done it you're committed.

R..