Finally Buying Diving Gear, which is best?

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The difference in speed between getting the two versions of the alternates to your mouth is not an issue worth arguing about. If you keep your head, you can take your sweet time getting your alternate--a difference of a second or two won't make as much difference to you as it will to the OOA diver. That diver will usually want the air fast because of the state of mind; you should be more in control.

So how will that OOA diver act?

In my 11+ years on ScubaBoard, I have read countless threads in which people tell us with firm conviction how an OOA diver is going to act. I think I have seen every possibility asserted with that firm conviction. The only time I have been even near a real OOA incident was about 11 years ago, when I first became a professional. In that incident, a young woman had evidently geared up to a nearly empty tank and had not noticed the air level, because she went OOA about 10 minutes into the dive. She calmly swam over to her husband and took his octo. They completed a textbook ascent after that, with the rest of their group calmly ascending with them. Curious, I polled the other professionals associated with the shop and learned that only a handful had been near OOA emergencies, and every case was like that--the OOA diver went for the alternate without any sign of panic. Or simply the circumstances that led up to the diver running OOA.

So do I assume that all OOA emergencies will be like that? Nope. I assume that those who report other situations are telling the truth, so I really cannot predict what will happen in a real OOA emergency. That is why I tell my students they have to be ready for anything. In my own practice, I have made the following decisions.

1. I need to react appropriately to that diver. Signalling OOA? Here's your regulator. Grabbing for my regulator? Take it--I'll let you. If I try to donate it while you're taking it, we can end up with a fumbled mess as our hands compete with each other's.

2. The last thing I want to do is get in an underwater fight with a truly hysterically panicked diver. If I think that person is going to crawl all over me and harm me, I will fend that person off, but otherwise the OOA diver is usually going to get what he or she wants. Unexpectedly ripping the regulator out of my mouth? Be my guest. I'll open wide so I don't lose any teeth. We can sort things out later.

3. I learned the bungeed alternate in tech diving and then brought it into my recreational practices when I heard about a woman who drowned when she went OOA. Her buddy's octo had come out of its holder and she could not locate it. An OOA diver will want guaranteed access to a working regulator immediately, and the one in my mouth will do nicely. I'm happy to loan it out.

4. I learned about the long hose primary in tech diving and brought it into my recreational practices as well. It gives me lots of options in dealing with that diver. Donating the long hose is fast and easy, much faster and easier than donating the octo from the golden triangle. We can cling to each other as in the standard octo process, or we can separate and swim either next to each other or in single file, whichever makes the most sense in the situation.

5. I am not opposed to the integrated octo on the inflator hose to the degree most tech divers are. It can work. What I mostly don't like about it is the complications of venting air from a hose with the end in your mouth as you ascend while your right arm is engaged with the other diver (assuming a short hose). I've never done it, but I do know it requires you to do something you probably have never really practiced at a time when your mind might be otherwise occupied.
Like many others I have not seen an OOA diver and had read many threads that spoke of the panicked diver with the primary grab and even had instructors reinforce this idea. Then I read a recent thread that repudiate this claim.

One of those instructors is a well know cave diver with several rescues to his credit and I believe him. It leads me to wonder if a difference in the circumstance surrounding the OOA event plays a role in the response along with the divers training. No overhead, clear warm water verses more stressful dive conditions such as hard or soft overhead, cold and/or dark water or simply diving beyond experience or training.
 
Do not buy gear for a course. Part of the point of a course is to learn about the kit. If they cannot lend or rent you kit you should find another instructor.

Once you have dived a bit you will find the things you like and the things you dislike. Then you can buy from a position of knowledge.

The prices you are quoting seem rather high.

Do not buy an Air2. Eventually it will end up in a box in your garage. Get two proper second stages. If a shop tells you otherwise, go to a different shop.

You probably do not want a computer which can only go in a console. Apart from smashing up the bottom they are more likely to get stuff put down on them, especially if getting back into a rhib when all the kit will be dumped in a big heap.
 
The bungeed secondary(not octo) might not be any faster to get to than an Air2, but it would almost certainly be a higher quality reg for you to breathe off for the remainder of the dive.

I'm assuming you'd be ending the dive at that point.

John brought up a point about ascending with an Air2. I always dive with a pony, I'd just switch to that on the ascent. My travel configuration is a bit different than most. Locally, I'm slowly switching over to diving doubles where I obviously don't have an Air2! :wink:
 
Like many others I have not seen an OOA diver and had read many threads that spoke of the panicked diver with the primary grab and even had instructors reinforce this idea. Then I read a recent thread that repudiate this claim.

One of those instructors is a well know cave diver with several rescues to his credit and I believe him. It leads me to wonder if a difference in the circumstance surrounding the OOA event plays a role in the response along with the divers training. No overhead, clear warm water verses more stressful dive conditions such as hard or soft overhead, cold and/or dark water or simply diving beyond experience or training.

Since there aren't many cave instructors with several rescues to their credit, I am going to take a wild guess about the one you mean. I know him pretty well. I have taken several classes from him, including DPV for the overhead environment. In that class he absolutely insisted that an OOA diver will panic and crawl all over you. He taught me a maneuver for OOA for divers on scooters that assumed the OOA diver will go after you. He was, in fact very much on my mind when I said above that I assume other people are telling the truth when they say say some divers, at least, will panic in an OOA situation.

I have talked with him about the circumstances in each of his recognized rescues and one other in which there is a dispute about the circumstances. In none of his rescues was the diver(s) OOA, although one was pretty close. In one of those cases, when he spotted the diver in the midst of a silt out, he backed away and then circled behind as a precaution in case that diver was going to go after him. That was probably a wise move, whether or not it was necessary. As I understand it, people were more relieved to see help than panicked.

What's the difference between those who will panic and those who won't? I can't promote any theory with any kind of certainty.

I think an obvious possibility is the difference between a highly experienced diver who is very comfortable in the water in contrast with a beginner who is not so comfortable. In the one case I was near, the OOA diver was a confident and reasonably competent diver, but she was not highly experienced, and she was in an AOW class (not from me). I am not convinced that is the best explanation.

I think a better explanation is not so much the individual diver or the kind of diving. I think the major factor is the time between going OOA and reaching the donor. In the case I described above, she was swimming next to her husband, so it was only a few seconds between realizing she was OOA and getting a grip on his alternate. In the case the cave instructor told me about, the "victim" was a highly trained diver taking a cave DPV course. He had been instructed that when doing an OOA drill, he should keep his regulator in his mouth and just pretend to be OOA. When he and his buddy had gotten a bit too far apart, the instructor told him to be OOA. Contrary to his instructions, he discarded his regulator as he signaled OOA and started motoring to his buddy. It took a bit of time for them to get there, and by the time he did, he was in full blown OOA panic and attacked the buddy for his air, even though he had a perfectly fine working regulator beneath his chin.

So I am going to suggest that if you have someone in an OOA situation, most of them, even beginners, will be just fine if they can secure an alternate quickly. If they can't, then what happens physiologically is CO2 builds up in the body, and it is CO2 buildup, not a lack of oxygen, that creates that panicky feeling that you have to breathe. If there is enough CO2 buildup, any diver will panic and potentially react irrationally, like that experienced cave diver who attacked his buddy for air even though he still had plenty himself.
 
Since there aren't many cave instructors with several rescues to their credit, I am going to take a wild guess about the one you mean. I know him pretty well. I have taken several classes from him, including DPV for the overhead environment. In that class he absolutely insisted that an OOA diver will panic and crawl all over you. He taught me a maneuver for OOA for divers on scooters that assumed the OOA diver will go after you. He was, in fact very much on my mind when I said above that I assume other people are telling the truth when they say say some divers, at least, will panic in an OOA situation.

I have talked with him about the circumstances in each of his recognized rescues and one other in which there is a dispute about the circumstances. In none of his rescues was the diver(s) OOA, although one was pretty close. In one of those cases, when he spotted the diver in the midst of a silt out, he backed away and then circled behind as a precaution in case that diver was going to go after him. That was probably a wise move, whether or not it was necessary. As I understand it, people were more relieved to see help than panicked.

What's the difference between those who will panic and those who won't? I can't promote any theory with any kind of certainty.

I think an obvious possibility is the difference between a highly experienced diver who is very comfortable in the water in contrast with a beginner who is not so comfortable. In the one case I was near, the OOA diver was a confident and reasonably competent diver, but she was not highly experienced, and she was in an AOW class (not from me). I am not convinced that is the best explanation.

I think a better explanation is not so much the individual diver or the kind of diving. I think the major factor is the time between going OOA and reaching the donor. In the case I described above, she was swimming next to her husband, so it was only a few seconds between realizing she was OOA and getting a grip on his alternate. In the case the cave instructor told me about, the "victim" was a highly trained diver taking a cave DPV course. He had been instructed that when doing an OOA drill, he should keep his regulator in his mouth and just pretend to be OOA. When he and his buddy had gotten a bit too far apart, the instructor told him to be OOA. Contrary to his instructions, he discarded his regulator as he signaled OOA and started motoring to his buddy. It took a bit of time for them to get there, and by the time he did, he was in full blown OOA panic and attacked the buddy for his air, even though he had a perfectly fine working regulator beneath his chin.

So I am going to suggest that if you have someone in an OOA situation, most of them, even beginners, will be just fine if they can secure an alternate quickly. If they can't, then what happens physiologically is CO2 builds up in the body, and it is CO2 buildup, not a lack of oxygen, that creates that panicky feeling that you have to breathe. If there is enough CO2 buildup, any diver will panic and potentially react irrationally, like that experienced cave diver who attacked his buddy for air even though he still had plenty himself.
Thanks Boulderjohn. I knew you would recognize the instructor. And I got the same lecture minus the DPV. Interesting theory and makes a lot of sense.

---------- Post added January 2nd, 2016 at 02:19 PM ----------

Hmmm. Found this...

New Insight into Panic Attacks: Carbon Dioxide is the Culprit | JYI ? The Undergraduate Research Journal

Results published in PLoS One suggest that inhalation of carbon dioxide can trigger symptoms in healthy individuals that resemble those of panic attacks in anxiety-prone individuals. These results imply that neuronal misfiring leads to the body's oversensitive reaction to changes in carbon dioxide levels. This, in turn, causes the body to believe that it is suffocating and leads to symptoms that resemble panic attacks.



I suspect its like most things physiological and psychological, multifactorial. A complex mix of sensitivity to anxiety, situational stress and CO2.
 
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https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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