Fins and manoeuvrability

[danvolker]

I agree that cycling is not the ideal exercise for finning. The movement patterns are quite different. Cycling is not commonly used by swimmers to train. There is probably a reason for this.

Cycling would not be the right movements for the muscles and coordination in swimming.

Scuba finning, or freedive finning, is another story altogether.
The leverage issue is big in fin swimming...But in swimming without fins, the foot provides such tiny thrust, as to have almost no leverage at all...With the freestyle form, many swimmers really pull themselves with their arms, and their feet barely do more than keep themselves from sinking.

In any event, the cycling works my muscles well enough to allow me to swim as fast or faster (with freedive fins and an hp120 and 18 lb wing) as a Gavin or a Suex scooter, for an hour at a time.

Would I be able to be faster still if I could do interval training in the ocean with the freedive fins, 2 days per week, and 2 days per week of aerobic training( LSD- long steady distance or spin days) ?
Maybe I could be more efficient, but all that time in the water would make the fun diving days less fun.....You'd have been in the water too much each week already....
Cycling is fun on it's own...with a group, or mountain biking, whatever....and it provides powerful muscles that are aerobically fit for fin swimming.

 

[dmaziuk]

I'm curious, now, as to whether the frog kick is now promoted for all diving (not just technical wreck/cave diving, where it is necessary) because of the limitation of today's new diver's ankle flexibility?

I'd go dolphin instead but the reg hits me in the head on every stroke...

 

[danvolker]

I'd go dolphin instead but the reg hits me in the head on every stroke...

That's why many of us go with bp/wing instead of jacket bc's..Ask Eric about the differences!

 

[dmaziuk]

That's why many of us go with bp/wing instead of jacket bc's..Ask Eric about the differences!

I suspect it's my head position to a very large extent. It's the downside of swimming laps with the kickboard and no snorkel. Must remember to not look up when wearing the tank...

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I suspect it's my head position to a very large extent. It's the downside of swimming laps with the kickboard and no snorkel. Must remember to not look up when wearing the tank...

I learned long ago to wear my equipment lower than most, as when you jump out of a helicopter or aircraft with the equipment we wore, you didn't want it to hit your head on either exit or landing in the water.

I routinely use the dolphin kick, and have developed new underwater swimming techniques using that kick as the basis for this. I'm simply not yet ready to disclose the details, but suffice it to know that it is much more efficient. Here are some trials I conducted in 2010 with various fins. Note that some of the efficiency gains in the dolphin kick had to do with extending my arms to the front, which gave a much better, more streamlined profile to the water.

SeaRat

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I'd go dolphin instead but the reg hits me in the head on every stroke...

Lower your tank down so it won't do that.

---------- Post added October 6th, 2015 at 07:28 PM ----------

Agreed, but what about simply putting in time with the fins in the pool? Finswimming is both a competitive sport, and a means of fitness. I have for decades swam in the pool for exercise, and have used full-foot fins as a part of that. That way, your legs are ready for using fins in the open water. You can practice with both a flutter kick and the dolphin kick, and start to understand the difference between the two kick styles. The frog kick is also available in the pool. Underwater swimming can be accomplished too, for a set distance (say 25 yards/meters) so that SWB is not a factor. I also have a "training" monofin, one that is not so wide, that I have used for many years. But whichever way you do it, good diving experiences does require a diver who is fit.

One thing about fins that some have not yet discussed is ankle flexibility. Fins are designed with certain parameters in mind, and some are relatively "straight" (without an angle to the foot pocket), while others have an angle to the foot pocket. People with good ankle flexibility can use straight fins, and that's where people who dove in the 1950-1970s were; many were former competitive swimmers with great ankle flexibility. You can see this with this diver from the 1950s, using the straight Duck Foot fins:



Note that the line from his tibia (lower leg) and ankle are a straight line. If I point my toes, I can actually get a negative angle, which gives fins a better "bite" to the water. You can also see this in this photo I took of a diver in Alexander Springs State Park, Florida in 1967:



The original Force Fins actually have an "up" angle, so that even when the toes are pointed, they are not horizontal with the shin bones of the lower leg. But this is by design, as they have tremendous elasticity. This necessitates the hard-downstroke, which bends the Force Fins back almost to vertical and provides their propulsion. This upward bend also allows walking forward with these fins on land. But until the diver really understands the biomechanics of the Force Fins, and modifies what Dan calls the "kick shape" (s)he will not get the results that these fins are capable of delivering.

SeaRat

Well sure, time in the pool or freediving trips to the ocean just for exercise is great too, but weight training develops muscles faster than any other form of exercise, then those muscles need to be trained and conditioned to do certain things. All sports have the athletes in the weight room to some degree. They've shown that there is no down side to proper or appropriate (to the sport) resistance training to enhance physical performance. Finning wouldn't be any different.

 

[danvolker]

I learned long ago to wear my equipment lower than most, as when you jump out of a helicopter or aircraft with the equipment we wore, you didn't want it to hit your head on either exit or landing in the water.

I routinely use the dolphin kick, and have developed new underwater swimming techniques using that kick as the basis for this. I'm simply not yet ready to disclose the details, but suffice it to know that it is much more efficient. Here are some trials I conducted in 2010 with various fins. Note that some of the efficiency gains in the dolphin kick had to do with extending my arms to the front, which gave a much better, more streamlined profile to the water.

SeaRat

Actually, the way I am able to keep or or exceed the speed of high end scooters for an hour, is by dolphin kick with the big DiveR's......actually a low amplitude, rapid oscillating dolphin kick that keeps leg drag to a minimum...This requires a stiff long composite blade like the Dive R , so a real oscillation of the blade can occur. It is a very comfortable kick with a good bp/ small wing system ( or no wing) , and the oscillation of the fins drive you so well that breathing rate can be held to the exertion level of a brisk walk ( where you are purposely not ventilating a lot).

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I would think at some point at a certain speed regular regs would begin to self purge with the increased oncoming water pressure.
At that point it might make sense to use a side servo type second stage like a Poseidon or similar.
I've heard that with some of the very fastest high end scooters this can be a problem, and if Dan is exceeding those speeds with fins then I would assume it's a definite problem.

 

[Freewillow]

Faster than a scooter with scuba equipment? I have to see a video in order to believe this to be true

 

[dmaziuk]

I learned long ago to wear my equipment lower than most, as when you jump out of a helicopter or aircraft with the equipment we wore, you didn't want it to hit your head on either exit or landing in the water.

I can see that.

... fin trials ...

As I recall the 15m rule was created after competitive swimmers discovered that a) dolphin kick underwater is the fastest and most efficient way to swim and b) shortly afterwards: SWBs.