I Don't Know How Instructors Do It

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Do you KNOW his Instructor?

Were YOU THERE?

Do you KNOW his "partners"?

And you attack his skill? He's a new diver.. *frown*

You're a DM candidate? Ok, stop right there. You're a DM candidate, patience grasshopper! Patience! You too in the future will encounter similiar situations!

Also, don't speculate on what the instructors you "work with" will do or not do.

You too are being unfairly judgemental of a situation you do not fully grasp.

You arn't qualified to comment about an Instructor having six students and two assistants. Until you teach classes yourself, you can not possibly grasp this.



cd_in_SeaTac once bubbled...
"That doesn't say much for your instructor"..

The dive that you've described doesn't say much at all for your instructor, his partners, or to be painfully blunt, your skills either. The instructors I work with wouldn't continue a dive like you've described, nor would they sign off on the cert cards of divers like you've described.

I think you're being unfairly judgemental of a situation that you didn't fully grasp, but if your description is accurate I would have reservations about the dive center in question. Six students with only two leaders isn't the best scenario, six students who all appear to have unresolved issues is a cf.
 
Greetings:

Well, I honestly didn't intend to start a flame war. All I tried to do was post my observations of a group of diving students out with their instructor and his assistant.

Because I was one-on-one with my instructor when I was certified, this was my first experience seeing such a group, and I was just really surprised by what I saw.

It wasn't what I had expected, and was a bit concerned about everyone's safety. It seemed like a stressful situation, and I simply posted that I don't see how instructors can have the patience to be put through such situations time and time again.

That's it, honest! If I came across as cocky, I apologize, because that was not my intention. I'm the first to admit that I know very little, and have even less actual skill than knowledge.

I spent the last year and a half reading these forums, and 6 months going to the pool every day so that I could learn to be a stronger swimmer and be more comfortable in the water, before signing up for classes. I just got certified two weeks ago.

It's been a long trip down a very unfamiliar path, so I certainly appreciate the difficulties that people, including myself, face when learning to dive.....

In the future, I will be certain to be more careful in the words and phrases that I choose when I post here, as not to offend anyone again.
 
Hey John,

Congrats on getting your open water certification....... I too am newly certified.....

My class had 13 students and yeah we all had a little trouble with our open water dives but are instructors made sure that we completed our tasks, even if flooding your mask in freezing water at 60ft was a bit freaky, everyone that passed deserved it ....... and all our instructors were AMAZING!!!!!!! Giving each student there extra time to help us in certain areas we were having trouble with.
By your comments I hope to god you don't become an instructor.
It takes a very devoted, patient and careing person to teach a bunch of scared people to breath underwater....and make them feel confortable so they don't freak out and harm other people or them selves. Also saying they pass people for the money, is that a joke, have you actually talked to any of the instrutors to find out how much the make when you pass.....try $25....is that worth risking someones life....


Christine
 
Good days
None of the students listen
:lol:
Thanks for the great laugh! May I steal this?

BTW, I see you also know the other "rules" of scubad diving:

1) Never hold your breath.
2) Always look good.
3) Blame it on your buddy.
4) Say "My Instructor never taught us that".


Pax,
 
baenglish73 once bubbled...
It might be a group issue. Large mixed-ability groups seem bulky and hard to manage. I'm not a DI or DM -- just an observation.

<snip>

Well, I don't know. This situation is quite unlike anything I've personally experienced in training.

For one thing, we assign buddy pairs on the first day of the OW course and the same buddy pairs do everything together throughout the whole course. When John said that nobody really had a buddy that, to me, is a nightmare that can only lead to chaos......BUT.....and I want to be completely clear about this, the lack of organisation is NOT the student's fault. The CA and the instructor are responsible for the organisation (or lack thereof).

Secondly. We drill and practice swimming shoulder to shoulder and neutral and following at a comfortable distance in the pool before we get to open water. By the time we have students on their last OW dive I can go any where, change depth or direction at any time with 8 divers following me (9 divers in total - 6 students 2 DM's and the instructor) of whom I can only see 4 myself because of the 3 metre visibility we have and I don't lose anybody. That the students John saw couldn't do that is NOT the student's fault.

Next. When we escort a large group we do it like this: DM in front, then 2 buddies (one pair) shoulder to shoulder which are the direct responsibility of the DM in the front with the instructor as backup, next another 2 buddies who are the responsibility of the instructor who follows behind them, then another buddy pair and finally a DM in the rear who takes care of the last buddy pair with the instructor as backup. (graphically)

DM - 2 - 2 - IN - 2 - DM

In really bad vis (if you can only see one buddy pair) then we do

DM - 2 - IN - 2- DM

If we have an odd number then the last diver pairs up with the DM in the back.

In any case everyone has only 2 divers to take care of and because the students are drilled in swimming in formation we don't have chaos of everyone going all over the place. If someone loses buoyancy control we pause, correct and proceed. Moreover if someone *is* going to lose buoyancy control (especially by the last dive) then it will be when returning to a shallower depth. When I'm about to go shallow I will turn around and swim backwards to watch my 2 carefully as we ascend. We also make frequent depth changes during all the training dives and even in the pool (10x back and forth from the shallow end to the deep end with control only from the lungs in a day isn't unusual for me). This way students develop better buoyancy control right from the start.

Next, we use a line for descending. Buddy pairs decend together face to face at their own tempo along a line. One of us on the bottom will receive the buddy pairs and organise them so they're not crashing down on each other's head as they arrive, one of us will hang 1/2 way down the line and correct if buddy pairs are getting out synch with each other and one remains on the surface until the last pair have descended. To date I've infrequently seen our OW divers crash into one another and I"ve never seen a mask dislodged. To me keeping organised plays a big part in ensuring that this doesn't happen. The students obviously have the responsibility to look around but you have to drill them to do it or they won't. It's all about setting expectations.

I'll stop there. This post is getting a little too long but I hope it gives you an idea that you *can* manage a big group competently and without the kinds of problems John witnessed.

R..
 
my god the guy just got his open waters and hes getting it from both sides having 8 students who are all ....(hmmm now i have to be pc or ill get jumped on )....scuba challenged would be a task for ANY INSTRUCTOR

knowone can say that they can handle any group of students cause what are you going to do if 4 students at one time decide to blow to the surface ...situation unlikely(if taught in class/pool well)
sounds like this instructor had a bad day and needed a bear afterwards
all im sayin is that we werent there dont blow the guy up for somthing you know nothing about
main word here is speculation

hey dude congrats on your ow cert trust me do advanced youl love it ...soooo much fun and most people arnt muppets they have some skill in the open water

dont be scared about goin in a group its a good way to meet other divers and remember do not look at your instructor as a god hes just a guy doing his job ....and i have to say its the best job in the world...on most days

p.s keep diving and dont listen to much to these people other wise youl be a deprest non-diving diver
:D
 
Well, I can believe it because it sounds like lots of the classes I see at the quarry. Just herd them around through 4 dives and give em a card. That's state of the art in dive training today.

Did any one else pick up on the fact that there was a ten year old in the group. Personally, I don't take students that age but doesn't the max number of students drop way down when some one under 12 is in the group?

IMO, if divers aren't tought to buddy dive in OW class they'll never get it.
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Well, I can believe it because it sounds like lots of the classes I see at the quarry. Just herd them around through 4 dives and give em a card. That's state of the art in dive training today.

Did any one else pick up on the fact that there was a ten year old in the group. Personally, I don't take students that age but doesn't the max number of students drop way down when some one under 12 is in the group?

IMO, if divers aren't tought to buddy dive in OW class they'll never get it.

Yeah my bell went off but I didn't mention it. He didn't actually say how big the group was. I think the standard is max 4 in a group with 10 year old in training even with a CA present. I'd have to look it up to be sure though.

Mike, I've honestly never seen anything this chaotic in training. How can you say that this is the state of the art? Maybe some instructors are this bad but I find it a pretty big generalization to say that's it all like that.

R..
 
The ratios are smaller for courses with young kids in, I am not sure of the exact figures but I know an instructor refuses to take more than four students regardless of their age in the open water at a time and he always has two DMs with him.


He reckons it makes his job less stressful and improves the quality of the teaching the students get. After an open water course recently a course of four students had clocked up an average of 50minutes a dive, they were always first class in and last out of the water and all the other classes had about 8 students.

Yeah he came out a bit frustrated over some things and they had their problems with bouyancy and skills, but with smaller numbers he has the time to get them perfect and to make them practice and redo skills he is not happy with.

I think when I was on my OW course I was very like one of those divers that John described because I went through a farm course with about 12 other students. I didn't know any better at the time but I know that I did appreciate when experienced divers had the time and patience to help me and advise me on how to become a better diver. Even now with a little more experience I always ask questions, practice and try not to judge what I see in the water (unless it's two guys on twins who drop down on top of my buddy and I, proceed to kick up as much silt as they possibly can and barge through the two of us as if we weren't even there) because it's hard to know what the circumstances of a situation are. It's hard to blame OW students for a lack of knowledge, after all they are there to learn so they obviously don't know it all :wink:
 
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