Inline CO Monitors in Sharm El Sheikh?

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Pyrolysis - better work, need to remember it...!
Since the publication of her paper and further research on the frequency of CO contamination in compressed breathing air all US fire service compressors are now required to have inline CO monitors installed as of 2008.
:thumb: With the conditions they have to fight in, they deserve clean air for sure.

Something about diving to 5 or more atmospheres tells me we do too.
 
:laughing: Hehe, ok that's the more common meaning yes. Originally attributed to diesel trucks and tractors. Not the meaning I was referencing here, but then maybe not well known among compressor operators and tech divers? I has presumed that it was but bad guess maybe? I just saw a good post on that so I'll excerpt from that here...

So anything posted by others is taken as fact as long as it agrees with your slant on an issue, no matter how paranoid?

:caveman:
 
:laughing: Hehe, ok that's the more common meaning yes. Originally attributed to diesel trucks and tractors. Not the meaning I was referencing here, but then maybe not well known among compressor operators and tech divers? I has presumed that it was but bad guess maybe? I just saw a good post on that so I'll excerpt from that here...

When a breathing air compressor overheats (higher risk in high ambient heat tropical areas) and the temperature in any of the stages exceeds the autoignition temperature of the lubricant oil one will get pyrolysis or dieseling of the compressor oil with production of carbon monoxide. If there is no catalyst (Hopcalite) in the purifier to convert the toxic CO produced to less toxic CO2, or if the catalyst is excessively moist as the cartridge end-of-service life has been reached the CO will pass directly into the cascade or individual tanks.

The term was first used in a paper by Dr. Claire Austin, an industrial hygienist, who has done work on compressed breathing air quality for divers and fire fighters.
Carbon monoxide and water vapor contamination of c... [J Toxicol Environ Health. 1997] - PubMed result

Since the publication of her paper and further research on the frequency of CO contamination in compressed breathing air all US fire service compressors are now required to have inline CO monitors installed as of 2008.

Sounds like the real problem is blowby. If the oil isn't getting past the rings on the pistons it shouldn't be exposed to excessive head temperatures.

I'm not disputing that it could cause a problem, just that pointing out that if it is occurring there are other factors at play.
 
Easy claim to make but where is the proof you have to back up this unsubstantiated claim? Real facts, figures and evidence not just an unverifiable comment made by one person on the internet.

Here's three I found in 15 seconds of thinking about it (and another couple minutes Googling them to get dates where referenced):
  • New Zealand lobster (crayfish) diver in August 2006
  • Double fatality well documented in the cenotes of Mexico March 2003
  • The Maldives death well documented here on SB

As said above though, fear and paranoia are great marketing tools.

While there were millions of dives done without issue, complacency and ignorance can be a real killer :shakehead:
 
So anything posted by others is taken as fact as long as it agrees with your slant on an issue, no matter how paranoid?

:caveman:
Nope. I've worked with Swamp Diver on this issue enough and know his credentials enough that I would think hard and do a lot of research before thinking him wrong. Whether he wants to post his credentials or not is up to him, but if you can dispute anything he says factually - go for it.

Have you ever tested a tank for CO?

Have you ever looked at a 17 ppm CO reading on a tank you were about to dive?
 
Easy claim to make but where is the proof you have to back up this unsubstantiated claim? Real facts, figures and evidence not just an unverifiable comment made by one person on the internet.

Well the best place to look for reliable incontrovertible data is that from the accredited compressed breathing air laboratories such as TRI or Lawrence Factor in the USA although others exist. These labs receive thousands of air samples sent to them from all over the world, including the Red Sea, and so their pooled data is very representative of the current state of affairs with regard to breathing air contamination in the dive industry.

Unfortunately we are unable to look at pooled data from the UK, continental Europe, or Australia as these countries and regions have not moved from using the antiquated colorimetric devices (Drager tube technology) where testing is done on-site and the results typically remain on paper with the compressor operator. Here in Canada and the US the results are done by third-party bonafide analytical chemists typically using a gas chromatograph as you mention. It is this pooled data collected over the years which is most revealing.

The first indication that we might have a systemic but sporadic problem in the dive industry with regard to CO contamination came in an Alert Diver magazine article written by Robert Rossier in May/June 1998. As you probably know Bob Rossier continues to write for Alert Diver given his wealth of experience as a systems engineer involved with NASA and the US Navy over the years.

The article begins with the examination of a fatality caused by CO in 1997 (two were identified that year) and followed on by asking two of the accredited laboratories in the US what was the frequency of CO contamination in our dive air? In 1998 the laboratory Lawrence Factor in Florida which received 700 to 800 samples a month stated that "5 to 8 percent of the air station samples tested monthly show CO in the 10 to 20 ppm range, and a few show levels in the 100 to 200 ppm range." Another test facility TRI Environmental Inc. which tests about 1000 samples a month reported that, "6 percent of their samples contain CO at more than 10 ppm."

That was over 12 years ago that we first had very good evidence our compressed breathing air was contaminated with a potentially lethal odorless, irritantless, and tasteless contaminant at a rate of 5 to 8 percent and yet nothing was done about it. Now if this was our blood supply with a potentially lethal virus or food supply with a bad strain of E. coli at these rates of contamination alarm bells would have gone off and something would have been done about it, but instead the self-regulating dive industry and DAN decided to ignore this elephant in the room and put their collective heads in the sand which remains the case to this day.

Seven years later in 2004 Bob Rossier wrote another article on CO contamination for Alert Diver magazine and asked the same question regarding the frequency of CO contamination in compressed dive air to the same laboratories. As you can see in the link below the frequency had improved somewhat but was still far too high for an activity where the toxicity of the contaminant increases at depth with increasing partial pressure. Clearly a failure rate for CO in dive air at 3 to 5 percent is unacceptable yet nothing to this day has been done by the dive industry nor DAN to rectify this situation.
Carbon Monoxide tester for scuba and firefighting

The US Navy looked at the rate of failures for CO and other contaminants from their land-based and shipboard compressors and even with a dedicated and trained compressor operator they had a failure rate of 2.5 percent for carbon monoxide at 10 ppm. These tests were done independently by TRI and the frequency of contamination results are from close to 3000 pooled samples. I'd post the link to the abstract at Rubicon Repository but the site seems to be down right now. The US Navy has been working on a real-time monitor for CO and other contaminants for some time now as they to recognize the problem of putting oil-lubricated compressors in tight spots with poor ventilation risks the production of carbon monoxide due to compressor oil pyrolysis.
http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/dspace/handle/123456789/1636

Dr. Caruso, the US air force pathologist who reviews all DAN's dive fatality cases for the annual injury and fatality report, submitted an abstract to the UHMS meeting in 1998 which examined how many divers had their blood checked for carbon monoxide poisoning over a 5 year period from 1993 to 1997. Of the 451 fatalities reviewed only 15 percent had a carboxyhemoglobin (COHb) level done.
http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/dspace/handle/123456789/734

Fast forward to 2010 where we continue to have hard data showing significant breathing air CO contamination in the dive industry at a rate of 3 to 5 percent, but in the event of a fatality only 15 percent of divers have a blood test done to rule out CO contamination as the possible antecedent event for the death. One suspects that the 15 percent of fatalities tested for carbon monoxide on a global basis is likely much lower since the fatalities in the Caruso abstract are those of US and Canadian citizens who where more likely to access the COHb test at the time of death. It would be almost impossible to get an COHb test at the time of death at most tropical dive destinations.

One would hope that is enough "facts" for you to examine and possibly reconsider your position regarding the risk of breathing air CO contamination within the dive industry. If we are not monitoring the compressors in real-time that we know can produce CO from within at a rate of at least 3 percent, and at the same time do not check all fatalities for CO poisoning then this systemic but sporadic contamination problem will continue to remain under the radar.

Here is a recent incident which was confirmed to be carbon monoxide poisoning by the laboratory. Had the diver been deeper or spent more time at depth he likely would have had his cause of death recorded as a heart attack or drowning on the death certificate rather than CO poisoning. This example was a very close call as were the recent injuries in Cozumel, Mexico also due to CO.
August 2008 Volume 18 Number 8

Hopefully with Analox's new dedicated portable CO analyzer due to be released at DEMA this month we will get a much clearer idea, particularly in the tropics where the risk is greater due to the high ambient heat, as to the real rate of CO contamination in our compressed breathing air. Don't be surprised if the rate is at least 3 percent at the 10 ppm level.
 
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Thank you very much for all your info and research, Swamp Diver. That must have taken a very long time to put together.

I am glad that the Ministry of Labour in Ontario, Canada moved to push all dive shops to get in-line CO monitors last year and it's supposed to become mandatory for the new year. Most dive shops in ON already have in-line CO monitors, but are allowed 5 ppm CO. It used to be only dive shops that supplied air to commercial divers that had to have an in-line CO monitor and provide clean air with 0 ppm CO. DandyDon, says that Ontario is moving to a max of 3 ppm CO allowed, but I haven't heard that yet (How does Don always hear/know about stuff in Canada?!).

The incidence of CO poisoning may be very rare, but it is real and preventable. We don't actually know how many CO poisoning deaths there have been because, as Swamp Diver showed, most of the time the CO level is not checked, even in fatalities. When it is checked and confirmed, it is often not made public.

I am happy to pay a little extra for my fills to offset the cost of an inline CO monitor and I suspect most divers would. It would really just be pennies per fill over the life of a monitor at a fairly busy shop. We check for percentages of oxygen when we get nitrox, so why the resistance to checking for CO?
 
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Thanks for the putting that together, Swamp Diver. Very informative summary.

This is getting outside Sharm alone, but over in the Analyzer: Nitrox vs. CO thread in the Basic forum, I posted a few questions that had been triggered by the combination of Swamp Diver's and the thread, and it was suggested I bring some of those questions over here to this thread as well. Any additional information, comments or corrections would be appreciated.

In industrialised parts of Europe and Asia, it seemed like only field testing using qualitative colour-change type detection was going on, and not quantitative lab-based analytic chemical tests (i.e. spectrometry or chromatography). Isn't visual colour-based testing both much less accurate and generally also significantly less reliable?

How frequent is testing outside industrialised North America, and is the frequency set by the compressor owner, local common practice, industry standards, or government regulation? The articles referenced mostly date from 2005 at the latest. Have regulations or common practice changed significantly since then with regards to CO testing and monitoring in Europe or Asia? I had heard that in North America, where new laws and government regulations didn't require it (i.e. outside Canada and the US) test labs saw significant decreases in regular testing when PADI stopped requiring results be sent in from their member shops. Can anyone comment on the accuracy of this rumour?

It was also noted that only 15% of dive fatalities in the mid 90s were tested for CO. I'm inferring these were mostly from industrialised North America, and that most of the fatalities in question would have been professionally examined by government-sanctioned pathologists. It was implied this figure hasn't changed much, but does anyone have more reliable data? Anyone know what post mortem examination protocols are in Europe or Asia, and whether North American protocols (or even common practice) have significantly changed since the 90s in regards to CO testing?
 
This is getting outside Sharm alone, but over in the Analyzer: Nitrox vs. CO thread in the Basic forum, I posted a few questions that had been triggered by the combination of Swamp Diver's and the thread, and it was suggested I bring some of those questions over here to this thread as well. Any additional information, comments or corrections would be appreciated.

Your questions are very good ones but a thorough answer to each one would require more detail than most probably want to read so I'll try and stick to the basics and draw some comparisons between regions.

In industrialised parts of Europe and Asia, it seemed like only field testing using qualitative colour-change type detection was going on, and not quantitative lab-based analytic chemical tests (i.e. spectrometry or chromatography). Isn't visual colour-based testing both much less accurate and generally also significantly less reliable?

Yes most of Europe and Australia is still using colorimetric testing (i.e Drager, Sensidyne, Gastec tubes) for the testing of compressed air quality. Drager makes a product called the Aerotest Simultan HP which many testers use. There is a British product made by Factair which is very similar. In general yes this technology is less reliable (accurate and precise) than the methodologies used by the accredited third-party laboratories in the USA and Canada. The advantage of the colorimetric technology is that the testing can be done onsite whereas the use of a formal lab requires some form of sampling equipment which introduces all sorts of other quality control issues.

For recreational, commercial and military diving in Canada and the USA all compressed air testing is pretty much done by the accredited laboratories such as Maxxam Analytics, Trace Analytics, Lawrence Factor, TRI, etc. who use gas chromatography or infrared methodologies for the testing of the gaseous contaminants.

In the recreational industry in most of Europe and Australia they are still using field-based colorimetric testing whereas here in Canada and the USA the dive industry moved away from this technology in the 1980's. With some of the tubes the error of measurement can be as high as plus or minus 25 percent.

PADI when it did require the quarterly testing to CGA 7.1 Grade E standard actually helped encourage many of their shops to start using formal lab testing rather than tube testers. A shop in the Red Sea or Mexico would collect a small sample in a test tube or aluminum bottle and send this back to the USA for testing at one of the accredited labs. PADI has special pricing for its members with Trace Analytics so Trace actually has good data on dive air quality from all over the world.


How frequent is testing outside industrialised North America, and is the frequency set by the compressor owner, local common practice, industry standards, or government regulation? The articles referenced mostly date from 2005 at the latest. Have regulations or common practice changed significantly since then with regards to CO testing and monitoring in Europe or Asia? I had heard that in North America, where new laws and government regulations didn't require it (i.e. outside Canada and the US) test labs saw significant decreases in regular testing when PADI stopped requiring results be sent in from their member shops. Can anyone comment on the accuracy of this rumour?

Currently in the recreational dive world no training agency other than ANDI enforces a breathing air standard for its member shops and resorts. PADI dropped their requirement for quarterly testing in 2009 after a CO-related double fatality where they settled out of court. The change in policy I suspect was a defensive business decision such that in the future should there be additional fatalities related to contaminated air PADI will no longer be a target as they now defer to the local authority's air standard which in most cases outside of Canada, USA, Europe and Australia just doesn't exist.

Recreational divers are in a real safety dilemma now because PADI has said (personal communication) that if no local regulation exists it is up to the shop owner to decide how often to test. As you noted there has been a very significant drop in the volume of testing at the labs and I know in our local area there are recreational shops who used to test who no longer do. I suspect given the current state of the global economy that the same reduction in testing seen in Canada and the USA will also occur at many dive shops and resorts. The first things often cut at a struggling dive resort are compressor maintenance and air testing. A friend told me that of 15 dive shops checked on Roatan last winter only 4 had a current air test.

The testing frequency is specified generally by the local standard (i.e. CSA, BSI, AS/NZS), however many of these dive standards specifically say that recreational diving is not part of the scope as they are written for the commercial dive industry. In Australia several states where there is a lot of tourist diving have written specific legislation to say that with regard to air quality the national commercial dive standard will apply. In other words it is highly variable from one region to the next.

Specifically with regard to CO the only change which has recently occurred in Europe is that the Brits dropped their maximum exposure from 15 ppm in the EN 12021 standard to 3 ppm. The CO spec within the European dive standard is currently under review and I suspect it will end up significantly lower next year. There have been no real changes in testing methodologies for Europe or Asia at the recreational level. Commercially though they are moving to independent local laboratories using advanced methodologies (GC/MS, hygrometers, FTIR, etc.). One of the real impediments to getting more recreational shops to test their compressor using a formal lab is the fact that one has to ship the collection container from locales such as the Red Sea or Roatan back up to Florida or Texas which can be costly and full of bureaucratic red tape. My guess is that in the not to distance future we recreational divers will be lucky to find 25 percent of shops testing in some of these tropical tourist areas.


It was also noted that only 15% of dive fatalities in the mid 90s were tested for CO. I'm inferring these were mostly from industrialised North America, and that most of the fatalities in question would have been professionally examined by government-sanctioned pathologists. It was implied this figure hasn't changed much, but does anyone have more reliable data? Anyone know what post mortem examination protocols are in Europe or Asia, and whether North American protocols (or even common practice) have significantly changed since the 90s in regards to CO testing?

Yes the annual DAN fatality report only records fatalities of Canadian and US citizens which occur in North America and the Caribbean. The odds of having a fatality checked for CO poisoning in the Caribbean are just about zero as the COHb blood test is just not available. Just getting a tank CO analysis locally is a real issue. There was a double CO fatality in Mexico in 2005 and the tanks were mysteriously emptied by the local police before they could be formally checked by a local laboratory which is typically a university research lab with no compressed air testing experience. Divers having a portable CO monitor on hand in the event of a fatality or injury in the future will permit the air/gas quality to be checked immediately at the scene.

It is pretty clear that for recreational and scientific divers who often purchased their air from local dive shops that the safety afforded by the old PADI system of quarterly testing is rapidly going by the way side. The good shops and resorts will continue to test diligently, however many will no longer test given that the stick of enforcement is gone. All the more reason to carry some form of tester for carbon monoxide. I know many of our local police teams, scientific, and military divers when away from home fill stations will be using the new Analox product.
 
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Guys,

If it weren't for SwampDiver, I would not have bought CO detector. Can't thank him enough. He and others in this board spent so much time at no-cost or personal benefit to advice us . I can't understand if divers still do not grasp the importance of personal CO testing where the equipment is US$300 at the most. SwampDiver is a doctor, sure he knows the CO danger more than those not in medical field.

I have a summary where my air fill station and dive training facility always test the air from tanks to be filled and also my own compressor air production after a fill :
I only have the ToxiRae 3 about 9 months now. I have group of clients where they will never do air fill other than in my place.

I do not do much air fill for clients, 70% of my air fill is for my own dive training use.

Compressor hours as of the day ToxiRae 3 in use to today, approx 250 hours. Approx 5 tanks per hour = 1,250 tanks filled.

Clients tanks at 30% = 375 tanks
Clients who strictly only do refill at my place, at least 50% of 375 tanks = 187 tanks
Clients who have filled their tanks elsewhere = 187 tanks, approx

CO testing for all "alien" tanks conducted and the results are :
- under 10 PPM , at least 10 cases
- 10 to 20 PPM, at least 2 cases
- 70 PPM once............ this is because an instructor requested this tank to be tested. His student threw up in the pool and got severe headache within 10-20 minutes in to the training. Fortunate it was not an open water session.

My compressor is an electric Bauer Mariner 200 with P41 huge filters. I use the cartridge number P/N 67224 which has CO remover ( Hopcalite ). I watched over my compressor temperature like a gold mine, when any of the cylinder head hits 135 celsius, compressor must be shut down. I use IR thermo gun. Filter life correction is based on 40 Celcius at final water separator and I do monitor the final water temperature with a sensor. My filter life is set at 49 hours only, where at 20C ambient this filter is good for 75 hours and at 10C ambient, this filter is good for 120 hours.

I have also used the PN 62565 filter cartridge which has no CO remover, I never get any CO at all with this filter too, but since I already bought plenty of 67224 cartridges, I might as well finish them. My compressor is not a profit center, its mainly for my own need and it is one of my most beloved toy, next to my 13 feet deep training pool.

I have a small 10" axial fan to help cool the Mariner 200 in its cubicle. I have noticed that I am limited to 1 hour running at the most before one of the cylinder heads will hit 130+ celcius. My ambient is 30C average. NOTE : the hottest cylinder head is not the 3rd stage, it is the 2nd stage for mine.

I tried to look for Bauer original data on maximum cylinder head temperature but can't get it. SwampDiver told me his Bauer Securus System shut compressor down at 132C. So I use 130C+ as reference.

Its kind of disturbing for me, only 1 hour run and I am hitting 130C+ at 2nd stage. That is already with the cooling assistance of a 10" axial fan blower. Later I bought two of 2 channels digital data logging thermometer with thin wire K thermocouple sensor. I have hard time installing the sensor wires to the place where the IR thermo gun is reading as hottest spot. My digital data logging thermometer is always 10-15C cooler compared to the IR gun. Later I discovered the mistake of the thermo sensor installation, its a long story, will post next time when I got all the mod ready and that is a great learning experience for those interested in heat transfer.

The logic here is simple, this compressor is air cooled, like most compressors. It is powered by either an electric motor or diesel/gas engine. Unless there is some sort of safety device like overheat sensor on one of the cylinder heads or on all cylinder heads and low oil pressure switch on the oil pump that is linked to a shut down system on the prime mover, this compressor will keep pumping air untill something making funny noise or something really seized. Safety devices cost extra and do not come as standard in most European model Bauer Mariner.

Find attached the compressor 3 cylinder heads temperature reading, it is a per 5 seconds sampling. Ignore the time for Cylinder 1 and Cylinder 3 reading, I did not calibrate the clock after a battery change. The Cylinder 2 and the final water separator reading has accurate clock. Both data loggers were running at the same time.

For 3rd cylinder head reading, add at least 10-14C, this is because my sensor is not yet located at a special hole that Bauer have drilled at 3rd cylinder head for a Bauer original thermistor.

Both graphs represent an operating condition where I DO NOT use the 10" axial blower for assistance.

Will post more...........
Iya
 

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