Is guided diving bad for developing skills?

[Storker]

Phil_C: Good points! Still, when diving independently I dive... slower? than I did when I dived with a guide leading us. When I dived with a guide, the guide was focused on leading us to as many sights as possible within the time constraints given by gas and NDL. Sort of an underwater version of the Japanese tourist group stereotype. When diving on my own with just a buddy I have time to focus on the technicalities of diving, to e.g. just stop and work on fine-tuning my bouyancy, and just the awareness that I'm on my own with full responsibility for everything puts me in a completely different mindset compared to when I hand some of that responsibility over to a paid guide/DM. Of course, that may very well be just me and my shortcomings...

Wookie: Thanks for the reply, but please don't let this thread end up as another "who's best, warm or cold water divers" fight, ok? EDIT: Liked your snipe about Perth, though, I think I got the reference...

 

[The Chairman]

Diving in cold water is just plain harder than in warm water,

I would use the term "Less than optimal" rather than harder.

Still, I've seen a number of northern divers who were train wrecks. They had a terminal case of IDGAS.

 

[victorzamora]

Storker, I am going to agree with Phil on this one. I had only ever done guided dives for years, and my buoyancy, trim, SAC rate, etc all got good. My emergency procedures stayed sharp. I was a good diver, as long as I was following a guide. It wasn't until I started DMC stuff that guiding, navigating, planning became an issue. I think this taught me something, though, and I'll make a fairly controversial statement.

I think that following a guide can help you perfect certain skills.

If you're following a guide, you don't need to worry about planning, navigation, or spotting things. You can focus on your breathing, your buoyancy, and your trim. You can focus on getting yourself squared away without any additional task loading. Is it the safest thing? No, now that my trim/buoyancy/breathing are mostly squared away I'm keeping better tabs on planning, navigation, and seeing things....even on guided dives. When we dive together, my wife and I switch roles. I'll nav/spot while she works on buoyancy/trim, and then we'll work on her nav/spotting skills. On days where her buoyancy/trim is failing I'll spend extra time naving, on days where she looks like a fish, the opposite will be true.

As for my skills, my Cave training really got my buoyancy/trim squared away (enough that I can maintain "decent" trim without too much effort). My breathing rate increases heavily when I'm taskloaded, which is something I need to continue to work on heavily. My buoyancy/trim always need work, obviously. What I'm still lacking HEAVILY is nav/spotting skills. I SUCK at "Where's Waldo?" and that translates to me being bad at "Where's Nemo?". I can't keep track of where I'm at on a reef unless I'm REALLY trying to keep my bearings (I also don't have a compass, maybe not too smart). I'm working on those on every dive. The only time I can even mildly keep track of where I'm at is in a cave, but that's because my mind runs on overdrive on those dives and in slo-mo on rec dives. This is a symptom of guided dives, I think. My non-guided dives have mostly been at sites where navigation isn't crucial, so I've been double spoiled.

 

[boulderjohn]

I don't think there is any question that divers can develop a learned dependency that can stunt or even reverse their growth as divers.

After certification, my first few dive trips were to Cozumel, where the DMs set up my gear and led all the dives. My next trip was to Florida, where I sat on the boat waiting for the DM to set up my gear until we reached the dive site, at which point it finally dawned on me that it wasn't going to happen and I would have to remember how to set up my gear myself.

In teaching OW classes, I have several times had students tell me that their experienced diver friends assured them that they only had to know the dive planning and navigation stuff for the test, because "in the real world" the DM does all of that for you.

For a lot of people, that is indeed the real world. A couple of years ago there was a thread in which a participant indicated she had amassed nearly 200 dives in her lifetime, all from cruise shops, all following a DM, and nearly all shallower than 60 feet. She considered herself an expert diver based upon that experience. In that environment, she probably was a relatively advanced diver. In that environment, she probably stood out as being among the best there is. As long as she keeps diving in that environment, she will be a star. Put her in another environment, and she will suddenly realize she is a beginner.

That kind of learned dependence does not necessarily stop at the beginning level. I was not given my cave certification until I could demonstrate mastery in critical line-laying skills. In the years that followed, I did quite a few dives in the caves of the Yucatan, and since I was not part of a group doing those dives, I had to use (and pay for) a local guide. That guide took care of all of the line work, and I eventually realized it had been a very long time since I had laid primary line or jumps. I was getting out of practice on important skills. I have now made it a priority to find a place to practice those skills so I can do them with the needed efficiency.

 

[TMHeimer]

I've actually only done one group-guided dive. Everyone was fine with skills--buoyancy, etc., and one of those fine divers was simply an idiot and took off. But my answer to the question is simple. Guided dives would have no effect on MY skills. I thinks it is obviously more a question of why people are "vacation" divers only. Taking OW course, passing all the skills, even having decent buoyancy-- then only diving one week or so each year (Scuba Review or not). I wouldn't do it--would be too nervous.

 

[Lorenzoid]

The vast majority of my dives have been with guides, in tropical waters. For years I wasn't even aware there was anything a diver could improve except maybe to take more classes up the PADI ladder, since I hadn't discovered SB or any other on-line resources or consulted with anyone. I just went on my tropical vacations and dove--oblivious to whatever poor skills I had. And I never ran into any problems that might have woken me up out of my complacency. That sort of diving is absolutely not conducive to developing skills. It has only been in the last few years that I have learned there is plenty I could do to improve my diving and started on a path of continued education and practice. My wife and I have made a point to do some of our diving in places where a guide is not the norm, such as Bonaire and the Florida Keys, and even North Carolina, with the idea that we need to make a habit of planning our dives (and diving our plans), practicing skills, etc.

I'm not sure whether people like you, who have learned from the very beginning to be good divers and have become accustomed to doing your own thing, are blessed or cursed. Are you at least able to still enjoy yourself when you visit a tropical dive resort and are led around like sheep? Apart from the disadvantages (and even potential dangers in some instances), are you at least still able to have FUN?

 

[Wingy]

Wookie you made some pretty big assumptions then.

 

[Mike]

The vast majority of my dives have been with guides, in tropical waters. For years I wasn't even aware there was anything a diver could improve except maybe to take more classes up the PADI ladder, since I hadn't discovered SB or any other on-line resources or consulted with anyone. I just went on my tropical vacations and dove--oblivious to whatever poor skills I had. And I never ran into any problems that might have woken me up out of my complacency. That sort of diving is absolutely not conducive to developing skills. It has only been in the last few years that I have learned there is plenty I could do to improve my diving and started on a path of continued education and practice. My wife and I have made a point to do some of our diving in places where a guide is not the norm, such as Bonaire and the Florida Keys, and even North Carolina, with the idea that we need to make a habit of planning our dives (and diving our plans), practicing skills, etc.

Ditto

 

[Storker]

I'm not sure whether people like you, who have learned from the very beginning to be good divers and have become accustomed to doing your own thing, are blessed or cursed. Are you at least able to still enjoy yourself when you visit a tropical dive resort and are led around like sheep? Apart from the disadvantages (and even potential dangers in some instances), are you at least still able to have FUN?

Let me answer with a parable: I'm an avid hobby cook and an incurable wine snob. I still enjoy the occasional junk food meal. With fries and Coke :shocked2: OTOH, if I were to live the rest of my life on BK, Mickey Dee's and KFC, I'd be utterly miserable.

Does that answer your question? :cool2:

 

[tomfcrist]

Anyone seeing the common thread here? Cold water divers who learn to dive (and dive at home) in cold water develop better skills than those who learn in warm water resorts, although Perth isn't exactly the warm water capitol of the world. Diving in cold water is just plain harder than in warm water, so cold water divers have to develop better diving skills so something is left over for the rare emergency that comes along.

I think floks that learn in cold/murky water in general finish thier class with slightly better skills, but thats not to say that warm warter learners cannot do the same. Yes the cold water floks are "forced" to perform better due to the incliment conditions that they are trainied, but If any student stays active and practices the skills regularly I believe they would be on an even playing field after 40-50 dives.

I don't think it's water temperature, except that cold water tends to be low viz, which means you have to develop compass skills.

But I do think that you don't learn to navigate unless YOU do it, and if you only follow a guide, you learn how to follow well, but nothing else.

Whats funny is that I hate using a compass. I can naturally navigate in our local quarry well enough, but other than that I have resigned myself to diving reefs and wrecks so that i dont have to use a compass if i dont want to. I quit diving surf zones and kelp forests long ago, thank god.