Is guided diving bad for developing skills?

[Mike]

Hopefully with the major changes coming to diving thanks to PADI updating the course requriements we will see more and more people questioning the guided vacation diving scenario as their 'something aint right' detectors will be going off more and more with the production of better OW divers right out of graduation

 

[tomfcrist]

Hopefully with the major changes coming to diving thanks to PADI updating the course requriements we will see more and more people questioning the guided vacation diving scenario as their 'something aint right' detectors will be going off more and more with the production of better OW divers right out of graduation

Just curious, How is PADI making maojor changes to diving by updating the course requirements? There are a huge amount of divers that could give less than 2psi about PADI's course standards, or thier wallets.:biggun:

 

[boulderjohn]

Just curious, How is PADI making maojor changes to diving by updating the course requirements? There are a huge amount of divers that could give less than 2psi about PADI's course standards, or thier wallets.:biggun:

Edited original post completely.

Although PADI is only one agency, it does certify nearly 80% of the divers in the United States, and (I think) close to half world wide. Other agencies have not added to their standards, so they will not have an impact. If I were an instructor in another agency, I would probably feel some kind of anger at the level of interest these changes are getting as well.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Let me answer with a parable: I'm an avid hobby cook and an incurable wine snob. I still enjoy the occasional junk food meal. With fries and Coke :shocked2: OTOH, if I were to live the rest of my life on BK, Mickey Dee's and KFC, I'd be utterly miserable.

Does that answer your question? :cool2:

Yes, it answers my question with respect to you. However, it has been my observation that quite a few people who become "foodies" find themselves unable to enjoy junk food anymore. And so I asked the question. I honestly hope that if I become a super-ninja diver I am still able to enjoy being led around by a divemaster over a tropical reef. One thing that gives me hope is something I recall TS&M having mentioned about being a skilled diver: it actually makes diving more fun by letting you focus on the objective of your dive.

 

[TMHeimer]

I would agree that guided dives can for sure entrench poor habits those with poor skills have to begin with. But it's not the guided dives' fault. Why are the skills poor in the first place? I don't think doing a guided dive will lessen the skills of one who's skills are already good.

 

[Wookie]

Perhaps I made some assumptions. Lets see what I based them on. I learned to dive in warm water. I taught hundreds to dive in warm water. I taught a few to dive in cold water. I have more than 6,000 dives, including in Maine, New Zealand, and The West coast of OZ, places I consider cold water. I've run a liveaboard Dive boat for the past 15 years, and seen about 10,000 divers tromp across my decks. No, not all warm water divers (which I consider myself) are piss poor, and not all cold water divers are all that, but as a general rule, cold water divers have to learn to navigate due to usually poorer vis, have to learn what to do if their reg freezes, have to learn better buoyancy skills because of compression of their heavy wetsuit/drysuit.

Warm water diving is comparatively easier. When I was a resort instructor, I would take on a 3 day class without thinking about it. You can keep the students in the water longer, you can see the student when performing skills and you can see where you're going, negating the need for compass navigation. So, as a resort instructor I would make these 3 day wonders who wouldn't dive again for 6-9 months after certification, if then. Of course, by then their skills are rusty and they would need to follow the guide because they remembered to put the breathey thingey in their mouth, but weren't too sure what to do with the blow up thingy on the end of the hose.

By contrast, the few students I certified in 37 degree water in Maine kept diving. Dive instructors in the North aren't trying to push a class through so they can start the next class. They tend to take the time to run pool skills a little slower, because they know that when the pool is over, they will be getting in the damn quarry. The students know that they would survive cold water, and they would practice at the lake on weekends. The point is that they KEPT DIVING while they were home. That kept their skills up, that kept their minds sharp. Warm water divers tend to only dive when the water is warm, and for folks who live in the frozen north, that isn't as often as for those who will dive anywhere, any time, any temperature.

 

[Storker]

one of the things I'm really working on is getting the "20 dives or so" people to re-learn doing a buddy check before each dive. They tend to think this is something for beginners.

I goofed up on my first buddy check ever, on my first OW course dive: I forgot to stuff my weights in my BCD weight pockets, and neither my buddy nor I discovered that before I tried to submerge. I got a well-deserved dressing down from our instructor.

I still do proper buddy checks after some 50 dives and I've never got any negative reactions from instabuddies, even if some of them probably would have felt just fine without. Half a dozen dives ago, my buddy noticed - during our buddy check - that I'd forgotten to connect my DS inflator hose. I hope I'll still be doing proper buddy checks when I have several hundred dives in my log.

 

[tomfcrist]

Edited original post completely.

Although PADI is only one agency, it does certify nearly 80% of the divers in the United States, and (I think) close to half world wide. Other agencies have not added to their standards, so they will not have an impact. If I were an instructor in another agency, I would probably feel some kind of anger at the level of interest these changes are getting as well.

Anger? No. Which addition do you think is aimed at making divers safer? And which one is even relevent to this conversation? Do you really think that PADI's updated S&P puts thier course a cut above the other agencys?

Dont get me wrong, I like the SMB deployment requirement....Its a much needed skill to learn properly...But how many instructors are going to teach thier students to freeflow a regulator to accomplish the inflation of said SMB...you know, like they do lift bags. In my opinion, Students should be advised of how bad of an idea that can be....and use a blowgun or other adapter. Im looking forward actually to collecting all the lost SMB's and finger spools from the bottom of our quarry. One can never have too many of those.

 

[boulderjohn]

By contrast, the few students I certified in 37 degree water in Maine kept diving. Dive instructors in the North aren't trying to push a class through so they can start the next class. They tend to take the time to run pool skills a little slower, because they know that when the pool is over, they will be getting in the damn quarry. The students know that they would survive cold water, and they would practice at the lake on weekends. The point is that they KEPT DIVING while they were home. That kept their skills up, that kept their minds sharp. Warm water divers tend to only dive when the water is warm, and for folks who live in the frozen north, that isn't as often as for those who will dive anywhere, any time, any temperature.

What you end up comparing this way is the difference between divers who are dedicated enough to want to dive locally and divers who are only intending to dive on occasional tropical vacations, perhaps on only one such vacation in their lives. Of course there will be a significant difference in those divers.

I have done many refresher courses for divers who tell me they got certified for a tropical vacation 10 years ago, and now they are going to go on another tropical vacation and want to renew their skills. Of course they will not be as good as someone who dives locally and regularly.

Here is another factor. Here in Colorado, our local diving is really pretty poor. Consequently, the overwhelming majority of our students only take the academic and pool sessions from us, finishing their certification on that planned vacation. Consequently, all the instructors I know really focus on getting the most out of the pool sessions--it's the only time we get to see our students dive. I want my students to leave the pool really confident in their skills. In contrast, I got my original certification in a 3-day resort course. The pool session was a couple of hours long in a pool 5-feet deep. I did not know then how many standards we were skipping altogether. My theory is the instructor figured it was OK because he could make up for it in the open water. Thus, I wonder if students who do their pool work in a cold water site and then finish in a resort might not be better off as well.

---------- Post added December 11th, 2013 at 11:39 AM ----------

Anger? No. Which addition do you think is aimed at making divers safer? And which one is even relevent to this conversation?

Improvements in information and practice on dive planning and gas management come to mind. The new focus on neutral buoyancy and horizontal trim from the start of instruction should help as well. The SMB deployment is also a benefit.

Do you really think that PADI's updated S&P puts thier course a cut above the other agencys?

I don't say what I think about other agencies. One of the PADI professional standards to which I try to adhere is not to make disparaging remarks about other agencies or their instructors. Sometimes I slip up a little when pushed to anger, but I do try to hold to that standard.

 

[tomfcrist]

Improvements in information and practice on dive planning and gas management come to mind. The new focus on neutral buoyancy and horizontal trim from the start of instruction should help as well. The SMB deployment is also a benefit.

I don't say what I think about other agencies. One of the PADI professional standards to which I try to adhere is not to make disparaging remarks about other agencies or their instructors. Sometimes I slip up a little when pushed to anger, but I do try to hold to that standard.

What I was refering to John was that PADI's new standards are merely to make up for having way too much gray area in their former S&P. Any instructor worth thier weight in salt already teaches in horizontal trim and nuetrally bouyant, or as close as a student can be to that when on scuba for the first time. Like I said, I like making the SMB a required skill, which I did years ago with my students even though no agency required it....Its just sensable, however, needs to be taught correctly in order to make a difference.

Padi changing thier standards has no major impact on the sport as a whole, mostly due to the fact that yes they do certify a high percentage of the new divers in the world, but very few of those divers dive more than once or twice a year anyway. By diving that infrequently, there is no hope of maintaining proficiency. Its not a PADI, NAUI, SDI, SEI thing..... Only when instructors across all agencies start teaching comprehensive courses that are aimed at creating passionate divers with great skills will "diving" progress past its current status. But in the world of the $250 dive course.....its never going to happen.