Management of *backmount* independent doubles?
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MichaelMc
Working toward Cenotes
Its possible breakaways have a place in open water, with OW divers near by, but not in an overhead, where they add other risks, and everyone should have redundant gas on them.
For the OW, SB does, occasionally..., rag on the inaccessibility of most octo arrangements. And praise primary donate as a superior donation setup. When we move to a less mainstream configuration, sidemount or ID, we might want to not revert to a maybe non instant donate scenario. Whether justifiably, or just to remove a possible criticism or charge of hypocrisy.
(You see, here in OW, your screwed up octo storage is bad, cus you likely can't deploy it very fast at all.... But my metal clip is fine, cus I'm an alert highly skilled diver and *I'll* be able to deploy *mine* quickly. Ahh..., that should go over great.)
Realizing that those criticizing, any lack of still instant donate, might be surrounded by OW divers with oct's stuffed in pockets, twisted around their back, dragging in the mud, a s****y reg, etc, and not carrying their own redundant air.
For the OW, SB does, occasionally..., rag on the inaccessibility of most octo arrangements. And praise primary donate as a superior donation setup. When we move to a less mainstream configuration, sidemount or ID, we might want to not revert to a maybe non instant donate scenario. Whether justifiably, or just to remove a possible criticism or charge of hypocrisy.
(You see, here in OW, your screwed up octo storage is bad, cus you likely can't deploy it very fast at all.... But my metal clip is fine, cus I'm an alert highly skilled diver and *I'll* be able to deploy *mine* quickly. Ahh..., that should go over great.)
Realizing that those criticizing, any lack of still instant donate, might be surrounded by OW divers with oct's stuffed in pockets, twisted around their back, dragging in the mud, a s****y reg, etc, and not carrying their own redundant air.
Isn't the reason for breakaways on sidemount is in case of a failure of not being to open the bolt snap? Then you have metal on metal. Also, In a cave, my understanding (take with a grain of salt as I am not caved trained), is being able to donate in a silt out situation. Would it not be easier if a donor was on the short hose to break the breakaway and donate?
Would a cave diver/instructor correct my statement?
Would a cave diver/instructor correct my statement?
@wetb4igetinthewater metal on metal doesn't mean a bolt snap to a d-ring. Metal on metal means you have a soft connection between the bolt snap and whatever it's tied to. Don't thread your SPG hose through a bolt snap. Don't screw clamp a carabiner to your tank for a lower sidemount attachment. Metal to metal is fine as long as you can saw through whatever is holding the other side. Otherwise we'd never be able to clip anything off to anything else.
In zero viz all of your communication is through touch contact. Go, stop, switch sides, entangled, give me gas. You either know where your second stages are, or you don't. And you can't see. And your buddy is telling you he needs gas. (Which btw I have yet to actually experience in a cave outside of training, you REALLY have to screw up for that to by the case)
One method guarantees you know exactly where your second stage is, and worst case, with a stuck bolt snap, you can still pull your short hose out of the bungee to donate and deal with your stuck long hose. Cut it free, even if you have to breathe with your head a little wonky for a minute. It's awkward as hell, but you're both breathing, and you have time to sort out your issues.
The other puts your long hose potentially 7 feet behind you, so now you've gotta grab your hose and pull it forward, inserting 7 feet of hose directly into the middle of an already precarious situation. And you're hoping that the same stuff that has destroyed the visibility, hasn't also packed your second stage with so much clay, sand, and mung that it ceases to work. Or you hope that it hasn't decided to act as an anchor in between a couple rocks preventing you from even getting to it. Or you hope that you haven't smashed it in the cave so much that it's blown all of your gas. Only you can't be sure of any of that because it's been trailing 7 feet behind you since your last gas switch.
At worst, the first method is just a little awkward for the brief period of time it would take to cut off the cave line with your buddy at the rather intimate distance of roughly two feet away. At worst, the second method ends up with your buddy being unable to breathe because the gas source you intended to donate is nonfunctional. All because a component that, by its very nature, is designed to fail, failed as designed.
I know people advocate for breakaways. I know some pretty well known people advocate for breakaways. I don't. And the one reason they can give is outweighed by a boatload of others. I sure as hell won't dive with those people in a true sidemount dive. They can go solo. I can go solo. But I sure as hell won't rely on them for gas. It's a liability. It's like people who rally against CCR's. You introduce 3 potential issues but you solve 20. "OH BUT YOU'RE GONNA DIE ON ONE OF THEM DEATH BOXES!"
The fact that this even comes up is because somewhere along the line sidemount became this bandwagon that everyone who wanted to be cool decided that they had to use, regardless of whether they had the need, capability, or cerebral aptitude to use it correctly. Agencies decided that it was a great way to make money so any OWSI could self certify as a sidemount instructor and post fancy Jesus pictures to instagram. Of course none of those people see anything wrong with their students trailing their octos behind them in the breeze, so why should it bother them if that hose happens to be 7 foot long?
Breakaways are stupid. If anyone can post an irrefutable reason other than "OW SM divers suck and can't be expected to adequately perform basic skills" I'll eat my hat. /rant over
In zero viz all of your communication is through touch contact. Go, stop, switch sides, entangled, give me gas. You either know where your second stages are, or you don't. And you can't see. And your buddy is telling you he needs gas. (Which btw I have yet to actually experience in a cave outside of training, you REALLY have to screw up for that to by the case)
One method guarantees you know exactly where your second stage is, and worst case, with a stuck bolt snap, you can still pull your short hose out of the bungee to donate and deal with your stuck long hose. Cut it free, even if you have to breathe with your head a little wonky for a minute. It's awkward as hell, but you're both breathing, and you have time to sort out your issues.
The other puts your long hose potentially 7 feet behind you, so now you've gotta grab your hose and pull it forward, inserting 7 feet of hose directly into the middle of an already precarious situation. And you're hoping that the same stuff that has destroyed the visibility, hasn't also packed your second stage with so much clay, sand, and mung that it ceases to work. Or you hope that it hasn't decided to act as an anchor in between a couple rocks preventing you from even getting to it. Or you hope that you haven't smashed it in the cave so much that it's blown all of your gas. Only you can't be sure of any of that because it's been trailing 7 feet behind you since your last gas switch.
At worst, the first method is just a little awkward for the brief period of time it would take to cut off the cave line with your buddy at the rather intimate distance of roughly two feet away. At worst, the second method ends up with your buddy being unable to breathe because the gas source you intended to donate is nonfunctional. All because a component that, by its very nature, is designed to fail, failed as designed.
I know people advocate for breakaways. I know some pretty well known people advocate for breakaways. I don't. And the one reason they can give is outweighed by a boatload of others. I sure as hell won't dive with those people in a true sidemount dive. They can go solo. I can go solo. But I sure as hell won't rely on them for gas. It's a liability. It's like people who rally against CCR's. You introduce 3 potential issues but you solve 20. "OH BUT YOU'RE GONNA DIE ON ONE OF THEM DEATH BOXES!"
The fact that this even comes up is because somewhere along the line sidemount became this bandwagon that everyone who wanted to be cool decided that they had to use, regardless of whether they had the need, capability, or cerebral aptitude to use it correctly. Agencies decided that it was a great way to make money so any OWSI could self certify as a sidemount instructor and post fancy Jesus pictures to instagram. Of course none of those people see anything wrong with their students trailing their octos behind them in the breeze, so why should it bother them if that hose happens to be 7 foot long?
Breakaways are stupid. If anyone can post an irrefutable reason other than "OW SM divers suck and can't be expected to adequately perform basic skills" I'll eat my hat. /rant over
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@wetb4igetinthewater when you position the bolt snap on a regulator, you should be able to reach it while it is clipped off. May not be comfortable, but it needs to be possible. That's part of why I adapted the bungee method that Hemphill sorted out for his Apeks to my Poseidons. It keeps the second stage closer to the body when it's clipped off, but it gives you a lot more reach when it pops out without dangling free. The way I actually hold my regs in sidemount is unfortunately only possible if you have a showerhead type regulator. All of my second stages have those bungees on them from Brett, but I have a pair of loops on either side of my harness, just above the d-rings, that hold the showerheads in without any clips at all.
I do agree with @JohnnyC that in technical diving, it is largely an equipment solution to a skills problem, but I am with @MichaelMc that it may be something that you value in OW.
Now, where I do disagree with him is that the breakaways are all bad. If the long hose is behind your head, if the breakaway comes off, the hose is going to dangle about 6" farther down, but still above your shoulder and in front of your face. That should be something readily obvious and easy to fix if the breakaway comes off. Doesn't mean it's ideal, but if you dive with the Bogaerthian or Edd style hose routing, a failed breakaway is no worse than in doubles. One extra perk to both hoses being behind your head
I do agree with @JohnnyC that in technical diving, it is largely an equipment solution to a skills problem, but I am with @MichaelMc that it may be something that you value in OW.
Now, where I do disagree with him is that the breakaways are all bad. If the long hose is behind your head, if the breakaway comes off, the hose is going to dangle about 6" farther down, but still above your shoulder and in front of your face. That should be something readily obvious and easy to fix if the breakaway comes off. Doesn't mean it's ideal, but if you dive with the Bogaerthian or Edd style hose routing, a failed breakaway is no worse than in doubles. One extra perk to both hoses being behind your head
PfcAJ
Contributor
Okay, possibly another dumb question. In a silt out, my buddy signals OOG. Are people ever trained to make a sweeping motion where they automatically go to the clipped off long hose and of it isn’t there to donate from the mouth? Does this make any sense or is it a dumb idea? I’m thinking of the time involved which minimizes the average time to donate the long hose.
Flame away!
Flame away!
OP
tmassey
Contributor
Can I please remind everyone that this is not a side mount, cave or rebreather thread? 
This is for independent doubles under circumstances under which 99% of people would be diving single tank!
I fully agree that the idea of a breakaway on a clipped long hose is only in the environment of diving with unskilled, under trained open water divers.
I went diving again today with the hose retainer bungee holding the bolt snap on my long hose. It popped off twice while I was moving stuff around gearing up. Not at all a safety issue, of course, but it’s not inspiring confidence for its ability to reliably hold things in place.
I am beginning to come around to the idea that an out of gas mugger is just going to have to deal with the 6 inches that the clipped off hose will allow until I unclip it for them…
Again, please remember the context of this thread: open water or recreational wreck independent back mount doubles. What happens to side mount divers going through a restriction in a silt out 15,000 feet inside of a cave is certainly interesting and informative, but may not directly apply to this configuration and we do not need to debate details surrounding that environment!
This is for independent doubles under circumstances under which 99% of people would be diving single tank!I fully agree that the idea of a breakaway on a clipped long hose is only in the environment of diving with unskilled, under trained open water divers.
I went diving again today with the hose retainer bungee holding the bolt snap on my long hose. It popped off twice while I was moving stuff around gearing up. Not at all a safety issue, of course, but it’s not inspiring confidence for its ability to reliably hold things in place.
I am beginning to come around to the idea that an out of gas mugger is just going to have to deal with the 6 inches that the clipped off hose will allow until I unclip it for them…
Again, please remember the context of this thread: open water or recreational wreck independent back mount doubles. What happens to side mount divers going through a restriction in a silt out 15,000 feet inside of a cave is certainly interesting and informative, but may not directly apply to this configuration and we do not need to debate details surrounding that environment!
Ok, getting back to the topic. Dive 1, you are on the long hose and drain the tank down. If someone mugs you, no problem, it is the long hose. During the interval, you use a transfer whip to equalize the amount of gas between the two cylinders. You start your second dive on the long hose, once you reach bottom, you switch to the short hose, and towards the end you go back to your long hose. Yes, there is a period of time where someone could try to mug the short hose for you, but I'm thinking it is more likely to be at the beginning and end of the dive, hence my suggestion.Can I please remind everyone that this is not a side mount, cave or rebreather thread?
I fully agree that the idea of a breakaway on a clipped long hose is only in the environment of diving with unskilled, under trained open water divers.
I went diving again today with the hose retainer bungee holding the bolt snap on my long hose. It popped off twice while I was moving stuff around gearing up. Not at all a safety issue, of course, but it’s not inspiring confidence for its ability to reliably hold things in place.
I am beginning to come around to the idea that an out of gas mugger is just going to have to deal with the 6 inches that the clipped off hose will allow until I unclip it for them…
Again, please remember the context of this thread: open water or recreational wreck independent back mount doubles. What happens to side mount divers going through a restriction in a silt out 15,000 feet inside of a cave is certainly interesting and informative, but may not directly apply to this configuration and we do not need to debate details surrounding that environment!
Overall, I think it works, and works fairly well.
Basking Ridge Diver
Contributor
Again, please remember the context of this thread: open water or recreational wreck independent back mount doubles.
So welcome to SB - once you post - it is no longer your post. And in the end the ramblings will help others think through the suggestions...
So here goes - you are going back to line and a bolt snap. If you are like me and you dive in cold water - the bigger the clip the better chances of you unclipping and reclipping... Small bolt snaps are not good with dry gloves - takes too much dexterity. YMMV
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