More than "Advanced", but not really "Technical"

[uncfnp]

Yes, that's reasonable. Can I ask? Does your field involve threat to life or health, should the individual make the wrong choices?

I do want to be clear, I advocate appropriate training for advanced diving activities, which if done wrong, pose a significant threat to life. "Appropriate training" does not necessarily mean a formal certification course - it just means access and involvement with practical and theoretical expertise. I, personally, don't give a hoot about 'licenses' and c-cards. When it comes to diving, the proof is in the pudding, as we Brits say.. That said, for the vast majority of divers, the only realistic access to such expertise is through a formal, paid, course.

View attachment 176402

Andy, if you read post #234 or my bio, you know that I am in the medical field. Specifically a nurse practitioner. And it is my nursing background that is most often associated with patient advocacy. There is another concept that might be related between our fields, paternalism.

So back to your question, yes, there are indeed life and health decisions made everyday in my office.

Second, at the risk of reserrecting this thread, I at no time suggested or requested any action that was beyond or outside PADI or for that matter TDI course requirments. But it was obviously outside the comfort zone of the instructors participating in this thread. At the risk of hijacking lowviz's thread, I tried to discuss a related idea that immediately received a knee jerk response "you are going to die." And your attachment is just another example of the loaded language approach that is common here on SB and perhaps demonstrates your attitude toward your fellow divers and students even better than your words.

But that's all history now.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I would suggest that you take the "advanced Nitrox" course. I just completed it with IANDT and you will be certified to dive to 140' and 15 minutes of accelerated deco on up to 50% oxygen. The skills and gear configuration will open your eyes to the "Tech" world without having to go further if you don't want to. You will need a different configuration than you have and will need to carry a pony. The skills you learn are really worth it! Just my .02!

This information is not accurate. Those are the old IANTD standards. IANTD updated their standards about 6 years ago and no longer limit decompression gas to 50%.


It seems this thread has taken a twist, or at least narrowed down its focus. It started out with a question about a recreational diver taking a decompression class in a single tank to expand knowledge and better equip that diver, who has been violating NDLs, to be knowledgeable in what to do when the NDLs are violated and that diver now has a virtual overhead. Now it seems that it is only the knowledge that is being sought and not so much the certification. That is something completely different.I would have no problem with someone coming to learn the theory and doing some shallow practice dives. That's basically an Intro to Tech class with a little more theory. However, taking a diver to 150' on a single cylinder just isn't appropriate because what is taught is that redundancy must be there and it isn't with a single cylinder. I had a student several years ago who wanted to take an Advanced Recreational Trimix class with me. While we were planning for the class I explained that the final checkout dives had to be done on the Oriskany. He wasn't interested in paying the boat fee to go to the Oriskany and told me he had a friend with a boat and asked if we could just head out on the gulf until we found the depth. My response was absolutely not. Part of the reason for diving to those depths is to see something that's there. We're not going to dive to 150' just to look at barren sand. The risk that comes along with decompression isn't worth it just to do the decompression dives. Yes, this was for a class, but I would be a hypocrite if on the one hand I tell my students you only dive deep because there's something to see there and then I take them to the sand just to get the depth. Same concept here. I'm not going to teach one thing and then do something that goes against that on the actual dives.

 

[RickyF]

Rob,
Thanks for the info. Going to check with my instructor, because he must have issued me an outdated training manual. Did any of the other core training skills change?

Ricky

 

[Dive-aholic]

I don't believe IANTD has updated their Teklite manual since making that change. The standards now read decompression limited to 15 minutes and 1.5 ppO2.

 

[waterpirate]

It is funny to me where you wind up after starting a quest for knowlege. I was that diver, who had alot of experiance, good sac, dove solo, saw the benefits of helium, and went looking for a way to make that happen. I found a instructor that would do the advanced rec triox, with a single and h valve. The more theory I ingested, the farther away from that notion I strayed, and went straight to the tried and true doubles. Soooo my quest to gain knowlege and theory got me to the realisation that full tech gear and training was the only way to proceed.
Eric

 

[Jaydubya]

I just wouldn't do mandatory decompression (or any overhead for that matter) diving with a single outlet tank. That's just nuts. I suppose a large single with an H valve might be ok if your sac rate is extremely good. Emergency decompression? There's not really a lot to know. However when people start pushing the NDLs it's time for a little education. People may start going over a couple of minutes expecting their computer to clear on the way up. And it does. All good. Then they push it a little more. Next thing you know they have a serious obligation and not enough gas to do it. Even if they don't have a free flow. It's not good practice to exceed the NDL in recreational gear. I'm not saying you are going to die or even get hurt if you do. But then again, you just might. It would be useful to learn about gas planning and calculate how much gas is required for some of these "light" deco dives. Do you have a buddy? Do you each have enough gas to get the other out of the water? If you run these numbers you will quickly learn that you are one free flow away from potential catastrophe if you do these dives in recreational gear and that a single with H valve might not give you the gas you need to do the dives you want. Don't forget in your planning that your buddy might need gas at the worst possible time and your normally low sac rates are likely going to be elevated when the sh*t hits the fan. There is a reason the tech rig is the way it is and it's not just to sell kit of look cool. It's because it's needed to safely execute the dive when something goes wrong because the surface is not an option.


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[DaleC]

As to the OP. I can see why using doubles would be part of a formal deco course. To claim any real understanding of a subject one needs to be exposed to the knowledge and equipment it entails. Deco definitely involves redundancy, of some sort, so having the experience of using that equipment would be part of the learning process, even if one never intends to do a technical dive. Otherwise it would have to be advertised as a "theory only" course with no in water certification afterwards.

I shake my head at the notion that today's rec divers are not capable of coping responsibly with decompression knowledge though. You gonna just let them walk out of the shop and get behind the wheel of a car? It reminds me of some peoples attitude towards sex education where the fear is: the more they know the more they will experiment. Just keeping pushing the abstinence only, no discussion model.