Need a boost a faith for the wife and diving

[SOFDiver]

I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but as an instructor I see a lot of things wrong with jebserf's post. First: If you don't think the instructor has a handle on your loved one's confidence or competence to move on to open water check outs, a conversation is in order. Second: the very worst person to be involved in the training of a "shakey" diver is a loved one. A loved one can never be objective, and if not a qualifed instructor can do more damage than good. Third: If a student is not confident or competent do dive without "hand holding" they should not be certified, IMO. A buddy is a dive companion, not there to ensure that the diiver does not do somthing very stupid or panic. I would ask jebserf and his wife one question at this point, does she really want to be a diver or is this something she feels she has to do for other reasons. I learned some time ago that I can train anyone who really wants to dive, but most often failures come from students who are not pesonally motovated. At best, Mrs. jebserf likely should have signed up for private instruction, and it is not too late to make that change if she/he answer my above question in the afirmitive.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

It needs to stated again that jebsurf did the wrong thing. Also, 0-24 dives does not make the op a very experienced diver at all. Confidence levels of a new diver with an instructor are higher than with just another diver, even if it's a spouse. I think husband "undid a lot of training," and wife will do fine if husband backs off and lets the instruction play out the way it is intended, by trained professionals. I have often had to "back off' a parent or a spouse who felt they could "help." Even other professionals are best left on the sideline when a family member is training in most cases. I won't "debate" the op on how many things were wrong with his plan, but I will say a single pool session without him being present, plus keeping your distance from her open water dives, should be all your wife needs to complete her training. Seriously, let her train like you did, and things will be much better.
DivemasterDennis

 

[maristu]

I'll agree with most other posters here, I think the problem isn't with the wife's training or with her ability to dive, but rather the fact that she was diving with her husband. I'm not gonna debate rights or wrongs in your attempt to help her, but I will say that I started dating my scuba instructor in between my OW and AOW, and I HATED my AOW course. Something changes when you have a relationship with the person that's teaching you, it's strange, there's an overprotectiveness (especially if it's a guy teaching a girl) that borders on condescending, and it totally got on my nerves. Don't know if that's the case or not, but I'd say just ask your wife if she still wants to do this (that's the first question, isn't it??), and if she does, and if she trusts her instructor (she's the one putting her life and training in his hands, not you), then I say back off and let her get on with her training. She can handle things with her instructor, say if she thinks she needs extra pool time or if she wants to take things slower. She's not a child (is she? ;-) ). Let her deal with her training herself.

My .02 as a woman diver

Mariana

 

[RickyF]

Jebsurf,
Where will she be doing her open water certs? Going from pool to ocean especially in Virginia Beach can be a little sensory overload. I would suggest that she do her certs at Lake Rawlings. At least there she doesn't have to contend with current and terrible viz that is common in Virginia Beach. It also sounds like she needs one on one attention from the instructor in the pool to become more relaxed and confident.

 

[beanojones]

It needs to stated again that jebsurf did the wrong thing. Also, 0-24 dives does not make the op a very experienced diver at all.

Assuming that the dive counts are old, which they usually are, there's a better point: 1000 dives as a diver does not make one competent to teach diving.

Teaching diving as a non-instructor is foolish, egotistical, hazardous, and liability-wise, borderline insane. As is taking a new diver on a boat and making them plan a 100 foot dive even though they are diving in 10 ft of water, which is one of those things that experienced instructors have figured out. After all, four feet of water is all it takes.

Teaching diving to a family member is borderline unwise even for an experienced instructor, which is one of those things that experienced instructors have figured out. Men in general are condescending and paternal to women, which is why I won't even train family members together at certain stages of practice. And I certainly no longer allow husbands/fathers to "come along" for training dives because I got to see too much of how incompetent husband/father divers try and show their student wife/daughter divers how to dive, and unintentionally endanger their loved ones and interfere with their learning.

(On the other hand someone teaching themselves to dive is a completely different thing, since the issues of motivation are completely resolved in that case. Instructors, at least those who are not driven by ego, see their job in training divers as massively accelerating the process of learning diving that most motivated people could do by themselves given enough time, and gear.)

My bad analogy for someone who knows how to dive thinking they know how to teach: Driving does not make one a car mechanic. Getting surgery done to me does not make me a surgeon, flying on a plane does not make me a pilot.

B: have a talk with the instructor and let them know what happened

I know how that conversation would end if I was the instructor. You'd be out the cost of a dive class, and your wife would have nothing to show for having done any of the course to that point, since we do specifically talk in the classroom about what a diving license allows one to do. She might just start 'training' divers herself right after she gets her license too. She does have a boat after all.

If your wife was willing to be peer-pressured into violating the basic rules of diving that she just learned, even before she got her license, she's not ready to be certified.

Which I, unfortunately, imagine she would feel relief in hearing.

 

[jebsurf]

Much to answer from a iPhone. But I'll do my best. But before I get started ..... I have about 150 dives under my belt. The 0-24 was just a click of the mouse and it can be easly changed. but Once again I'm still not an instructor even if I have 10,000 dives what I did still might not had been the best move but im not going to go into reasoning because no matter what I say... I still wont get the aproval from some and we cant change the past. That was not the intencions of this thread. But back on track..... Which is making the right decision from this point forward....and not for me...but for her

The <really> short answer is that panic comes from having unresolved stress. Unresolved stress is caused by not recognizing and dealing with it as it happens. In students this is generally because they don't recognize the stress or don't understand what to do about it.

There are any number of threads on SCUBABoard about this, but what your wife needs is a class that lasts as long as it takes for her to become proficient in all her skills and comfortable in the water, and able to perform all of the emergency skills calmly, whenever needed.

It's extremely likely that no matter how "nice" her instructor was, completion of the class was determined by simply observing that the student has performed various skills, and that the end of the class was determined by a date on a calendar, not how proficient she was.

Your wife needs solid skills and good training and lots of pool time, not just faith.

For comparison, a number of us teach classes that run 6 to 8 pool sessions (or more) and consider that a "good start" while there are tons of classes that take just a few days.

Your wife will be ready when the thought of doing her open water dives fills her with excitement, not dread, and when her instructor would happily let her go diving with his mom or child. Anything less than that is just pushing her out the door for the convenience of the shop/instructor.



Your wife needs to be competent enough in the water, that she can easily handle herself even if you're not there.

The actually takes some time and can't be rushed.

flots.

edit


This is a giant red flag. The Open Water dives are a demonstration that the student is competent in open water. They are not additional training. She should be extremely comfortable and very competent before ever doing her OW dives. Sending her to OW without being ready is dangerous, and at the very least could turn her off to diving forever.

i 100% agree. In diving red flags are never good.

How big was the transition? By that, I mean how much colder was the water, and how much worse was the viz, and how much more exposure protection and weight did she have to wear? Our students in Puget Sound go through an ENORMOUS transition, moving from warm, relatively clear water in the pool, to cold, murky, silty conditions in OW. It is often very stressful for them, but at least our students get to go in from shore, so they make a gradual transition. We have them lie down in water they can stand up in and just lie on the bottom and breathe for a while, until they can relax.

I can see how getting off a boat into limited visibility in unfamiliar conditions could be extremely stressful.

I would speak with her instructor and tell him what happened. He's going to scold you, as he ought, but it will give him a very good heads-up about what her issues are going to be.

pool: you know vis/ 90deg to 68deg 10ft viz. it's a hell of a transision but we don't live in FL . Wish we did

I don't like giving bad news, but not everyone can do it. I've got a good lady friend who had a similar story. Did the classes, and lots of pool work and was very comfortable. Kind of freaked when it came time for the open water cert dives. That was two years ago and she hasn't been willing to try again.

Still, if additional pool time is available I would try and get her in the pool a lot more.

Do you have any lakes or quarries within a reasonable distance? If so, that may be a good intermediate step before doing the Atlantic again.

deff going to try for some more pool time!

Perhaps starting at the shore and slowly working to depth?

we did. Started at 5ft and worked to 10ft

I had a similar experience. My wife saw how much my son and I were having diving and wanted to give it a try. I hired a private instructor and she did fine on her pool dives. The night before her scheduled OW dives she literally did not sleep. She was a wreck without getting near a boat.

We talked it over and decided that diving is not for everyone and that forcing yourself to do something that terrifies you was a recipe for disaster. Like the OP says panic kills divers.

I hope your wife's fears can be overcome, but it is supposed to be fun not frightening.

Good Luck, I hope she works it out.

panic divers scare me. I agree 100%

I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but as an instructor I see a lot of things wrong with jebserf's post. First: If you don't think the instructor has a handle on your loved one's confidence or competence to move on to open water check outs, a conversation is in order. Second: the very worst person to be involved in the training of a "shakey" diver is a loved one. A loved one can never be objective, and if not a qualifed instructor can do more damage than good. Third: If a student is not confident or competent do dive without "hand holding" they should not be certified, IMO. A buddy is a dive companion, not there to ensure that the diiver does not do somthing very stupid or panic. I would ask jebserf and his wife one question at this point, does she really want to be a diver or is this something she feels she has to do for other reasons. I learned some time ago that I can train anyone who really wants to dive, but most often failures come from students who are not pesonally motovated. At best, Mrs. jebserf likely should have signed up for private instruction, and it is not too late to make that change if she/he answer my above question in the afirmitive.

My first question for her after she got home after the test was " if you and I were no longer to be....is this something you would keep doing?" And she said 100% yes. Which was a good thing

It needs to stated again that jebsurf did the wrong thing. Also, 0-24 dives does not make the op a very experienced diver at all. Confidence levels of a new diver with an instructor are higher than with just another diver, even if it's a spouse. I think husband "undid a lot of training," and wife will do fine if husband backs off and lets the instruction play out the way it is intended, by trained professionals. I have often had to "back off' a parent or a spouse who felt they could "help." Even other professionals are best left on the sideline when a family member is training in most cases. I won't "debate" the op on how many things were wrong with his plan, but I will say a single pool session without him being present, plus keeping your distance from her open water dives, should be all your wife needs to complete her training. Seriously, let her train like you did, and things will be much better.
DivemasterDennis

see above about my dives. And as for me and my training... I agree 100% but I freedive and have been doing so a long time before my crets. I want nothing more for her but to finish(I won't tell her that) but I tell her that this HAS to be for her and not me. I already have enough dive buddies

I'll agree with most other posters here, I think the problem isn't with the wife's training or with her ability to dive, but rather the fact that she was diving with her husband. I'm not gonna debate rights or wrongs in your attempt to help her, but I will say that I started dating my scuba instructor in between my OW and AOW, and I HATED my AOW course. Something changes when you have a relationship with the person that's teaching you, it's strange, there's an overprotectiveness (especially if it's a guy teaching a girl) that borders on condescending, and it totally got on my nerves. Don't know if that's the case or not, but I'd say just ask your wife if she still wants to do this (that's the first question, isn't it??), and if she does, and if she trusts her instructor (she's the one putting her life and training in his hands, not you), then I say back off and let her get on with her training. She can handle things with her instructor, say if she thinks she needs extra pool time or if she wants to take things slower. She's not a child (is she? ;-) ). Let her deal with her training herself.

My .02 as a woman diver

Mariana

I agree. It's all in her lap now.

Jebsurf,
Where will she be doing her open water certs? Going from pool to ocean especially in Virginia Beach can be a little sensory overload. I would suggest that she do her certs at Lake Rawlings. At least there she doesn't have to contend with current and terrible viz that is common in Virginia Beach. It also sounds like she needs one on one attention from the instructor in the pool to become more relaxed and confident.

lake Rawlings is where she will do her ow stuff. Much better viz. but it will be a shocker even from that to where we dive around here.




And thanks all for the $.02. I'm gonna try to get some more pool time before the weekend and then I'm gonna let her make the call. If she wants to go.... All I'm gonna ask is that she has a talk with the instructor. If not..... I have some spare equipment.

---------- Post added May 20th, 2013 at 11:49 AM ----------

Assuming that the dive counts are old, which they usually are, there's a better point: 1000 dives as a diver does not make one competent to teach diving.

Teaching diving as a non-instructor is foolish, egotistical, hazardous, and liability-wise, borderline insane. As is taking a new diver on a boat and making them plan a 100 foot dive even though they are diving in 10 ft of water, which is one of those things that experienced instructors have figured out. After all, four feet of water is all it takes.

Teaching diving to a family member is borderline unwise even for an experienced instructor, which is one of those things that experienced instructors have figured out. Men in general are condescending and paternal to women, which is why I won't even train family members together at certain stages of practice. And I certainly no longer allow husbands/fathers to "come along" for training dives because I got to see too much of how incompetent husband/father divers try and show their student wife/daughter divers how to dive, and unintentionally endanger their loved ones and interfere with their learning.

(On the other hand someone teaching themselves to dive is a completely different thing, since the issues of motivation are completely resolved in that case. Instructors, at least those who are not driven by ego, see their job in training divers as massively accelerating the process of learning diving that most motivated people could do by themselves given enough time, and gear.)

My bad analogy for someone who knows how to dive thinking they know how to teach: Driving does not make one a car mechanic. Getting surgery done to me does not make me a surgeon, flying on a plane does not make me a pilot.



I know how that conversation would end if I was the instructor. You'd be out the cost of a dive class, and your wife would have nothing to show for having done any of the course to that point, since we do specifically talk in the classroom about what a diving license allows one to do. She might just start 'training' divers herself right after she gets her license too. She does have a boat after all.

If your wife was willing to be peer-pressured into violating the basic rules of diving that she just learned, even before she got her license, she's not ready to be certified.

Which I, unfortunately, imagine she would feel relief in hearing.

i am in no way shape or form a teacher nor did I ever state to be. All of the teaching should have been done with her instructor. And we didn't plan on a 100ft dive... Was just saying that we planed it just like any other dive. The skillset should have been tought in the classroom and pool(which it was). Also the pool dives were at 15ft hence why we did less then that. But anyway I get it.....just so you know.please see the top of my other post. If you wanna rag on me for my move please start another thread or pm me so we can discuss it further.

 

[Steve_C]

Jebsurf,
Where will she be doing her open water certs? Going from pool to ocean especially in Virginia Beach can be a little sensory overload. I would suggest that she do her certs at Lake Rawlings. At least there she doesn't have to contend with current and terrible viz that is common in Virginia Beach. It also sounds like she needs one on one attention from the instructor in the pool to become more relaxed and confident.

This ia an excellent idea. At Rawlings she can do a gradual shore entry. The viz is usually over 20 ft.

Jebsurf, you obviously are a risk taker. While your wife may not admit it in order to protect your ego, in a diving environment she may have much less confidence in you then she would in a qualified experienced instructor. You are a major source of stress even if you did not intend that.

Did a pair of dives with a husband/wife a couple years ago. He had done some diving and was giving her lots of advice. She was newly minted. We did a dive as a threesome with hubby as her guide. She had buoyancy issues. I kept quiet. Then she and I did a second dive while he dove with the daughter. We went off by ourselves. She did fine. Bit of a swimmer but was relaxed and enjoyed the dive.

 

[jebsurf]

This ia an excellent idea. At Rawlings she can do a gradual shore entry. The viz is usually over 20 ft.

Jebsurf, you obviously are a risk taker. While your wife may not admit it in order to protect your ego, in a diving environment she may have much less confidence in you then she would in a qualified experienced instructor. You are a major source of stress even if you did not intend that.

Did a pair of dives with a husband/wife a couple years ago. He had done some diving and was giving her lots of advice. She was newly minted. We did a dive as a threesome with hubby as her guide. She had buoyancy issues. I kept quiet. Then she and I did a second dive while he dove with the daughter. We went off by ourselves. She did fine. Bit of a swimmer but was relaxed and enjoyed the dive.

A:I can assure you I don't have a ego. I'm one of the most laid back people out there.

B: you could very well have a point about me causing her stress. It's good advice but she's my wife and I want to be there for her. I'm confident enough diver where if a problem were to arise I'm 100% sure I can work her through it. I'm confident in my diving. But I just want her to be safe ..... maybe go buy her some golf clubs lol


C: I'm ok with constrictive criticism(which is what most have done). But What the tough guy above you with his tough guy rant with "I'd tell you what I'd do".... Not do much.still waiting on his pm

 

[yardpro]

i would also hire an instructor..

If your relationship is like ours, your wife will listen to someone else before she will listen to you...

My wife is VERY opinionated and stubborn... I can't tell her to do anything, but let someone else tell her and she's OK with it.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Liability? Who gives a crap .. it is his WIFE... He kills her he is going to be "in trouble". I suspect that your wife had the typical abbreviated scuba course. Then she goes with the husband (a non-professional) who she probably doesn't view as "a professional" and this may add a lot to her stress level. I wonder if she would have been more comfortable "in the hands of" the people she was taught in the pool with? Maybe, maybe not?

If it were me, I think I would demand that she go back for some more pool practice and then if and only if she really wants to do the dives, let the instructor take her. If she wants you there, maybe the instructor would allow it. I would then take her in the pool and train her myself in no-mask buddy breathing.... they don't teach that stuff anymore... but it will be a good method to guage her comfort and skill level...I would do all this before letting her go in open water.

If you are typing that "maybe she is not cut out for scuba".. then you are probably sending the same message to her and this type of "lack of confidence" can easily be enough to tweek someone from uncomfortable to panic.