Number of dives metric

[EFX]

I dove a couple of weekends ago with a hodge podge mix of divers. One PADI Course director, One active instructor, One DM, One Master diver a few advanced (myself included) divers of varying degrees of experience. ......

After seeing the Master diver in the group freak out and have to be brought up to around 30' holding her partners hand (most of the group was hanging around 70') after seeing a large group of sharks....had me chuckling (sorry John if you're reading this thread).

So what! I don't see any connection with dive proficiency per se. She found herself in a new environment (lots of sharks) and got scared. There is no "overcome all your fears" specialty PADI course that leads to master diver. We should all be so fearless as you.

End of the day, you can be a less than proficient diver with all the certifications in the world. Experience comes from working thru tough dives and rookie mistakes.

Ahhh! You must have the "tough dive experience" certification and the "I've conquered all the rookie mistakes" certification. Congratulations. And without the certs (training) you can pick up bad habits from experience diving with other "bad" divers, with the same bad habits, which would make you a "less than proficient" diver.

 

[mathauck0814]

It seems all agencies use the number of dives to qualitatively measure the experience of a diver.
Wouldn't it be better to use the number of hours underwater instead? Someone once went as far as suggesting me to log three 20 minutes dives instead of the one hour dive I did... WTF.

I've never seen a standard that indicates a requirement to use base 10 math. Just switch it up until you get the desired results ;-)

 

[EFX]

Master Diver is a meaningless designation in PADI parlance ... all it means is that you've purchased a requisite number of specialty classes. There is absolutely no additional requirement other than the fee for the card.

I think PADI would disagree with you and I certainly do. Another additional requirement is a minimum of 50 dives. I looked at your profile and it appears you went from rescue to DM and then on to instructor. So I can understand where you're coming from. Which is fine. However, there is a group of divers who don't want to go pro but want to continue their education and level of experience and want something to show for it.

 

[mathauck0814]

I think PADI would disagree with you and I certainly do. Another additional requirement is a minimum of 50 dives. I looked at your profile and it appears you went from rescue to DM and then on to instructor. So I can understand where you're coming from. Which is fine. However, there is a group of divers who don't want to go pro but want to continue their education and level of experience and want something to show for it.

50 dives isn't much in the way of a dive resume; especially to associate with the word "master".

What most divers who persue additional education and experience outside of a formal curriculum "get to show for it" is to know what they're doing. As you progress you'll get better at picking these people out. They don't have a card or a patch, they just know what they're doing. PADI's master diver program is a joke and a money grab. For it to have any teeth at all the minimums would have to come up significantly.

 

[Redshift]

It's not much different from DM. But it has a major flaw, which is there are no required specialties. With a good choice of specialties an MD can know more about diving than a DM.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think PADI would disagree with you and I certainly do. Another additional requirement is a minimum of 50 dives. I looked at your profile and it appears you went from rescue to DM and then on to instructor. So I can understand where you're coming from. Which is fine. However, there is a group of divers who don't want to go pro but want to continue their education and level of experience and want something to show for it.

Different agencies have different standards for designations by the same name. I'm a NAUI instructor, and was in fact at one time a NAUI Master Diver. In the NAUI system it's a real course ... made so not through the purchase of specialty classes, but by course content specific to a Master Diver class and designated skills mandated for that level fo diving. In other words, you don't just send them $50 and receive the badge. In the NAUI system, Master Diver is the diving skills portion of their DM designation ... so it does exactly what you indicate some people want ... provide a path to pursue the diving skills of a pro without having to deal with the leadership and liability issues. SEI has a similar Master Diver designation based on the requirements of the old YMCA program from which they were created. Other agencies may, as well ... but I'm not familiar with the specifics of those agencies.

If you want a merit badge for taking a bunch of classes, that's all well and good ... but it in no way makes you a "master diver", except in the parlance of a company whose reason for existence is to sell you more classes. I don't care to get into another argument about the merits or lack thereof of particular PADI programs ... but I do wish they'd not choose to use the same name for a merit badge that other agencies have used for decades to mean something significantly more. It's a bit of sleazy marketing, to my concern.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[EFX]

50 dives isn't much in the way of a dive resume; especially to associate with the word "master".

By who's standard? Yours, R-Balljunkie's, NWGratefulDiver's? To someone who wants a modest increase in education like a starting diver it's a good resume. And you're forgetting one thing: not everyone wants to progress to the level of those who are trashing the master diver rating. Obviously, the term "master" is relative.

What most divers who persue additional education and experience outside of a formal curriculum "get to show for it" is to know what they're doing. As you progress you'll get better at picking these people out. They don't have a card or a patch, they just know what they're doing.

Whether you get a card or not is irrelevant. There are plenty of master divers who know what they are doing AT THEIR LEVEL OF TRAINING AND EDUCATION. You have to look at what it means within the PADI program. Of course it's going to fall short of your level of training and experience.

PADI's master diver program is a joke and a money grab. For it to have any teeth at all the minimums would have to come up significantly.

From your perspective with all your training and experience. Whether it's a joke or a money grab depends on the value one gets out of the program. See above comment.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

By who's standard? Yours, R-Balljunkie's, NWGratefulDiver's? To someone who wants a modest increase in education like a starting diver it's a good resume. And you're forgetting one thing: not everyone wants to progress to the level of those who are trashing the master diver rating. Obviously, the term "master" is relative.

Actually I'm not trashing the term at all ... I'm lamenting PADI's decision to make it a merit badge rather than a real course, like other agencies do. If they want to offer the badge, that's great incentive for folks to take more classes ... I just wish they'd chosen a different name for that approach, because it in no way compares to other agency's master diver programs.

Whether you get a card or not is irrelevant. There are plenty of master divers who know what they are doing AT THEIR LEVEL OF TRAINING AND EDUCATION. You have to look at what it means within the PADI program. Of course it's going to fall short of your level of training and experience.

I'm sure there are individual divers with that designation that know what they're doing ... in fact, I'm positive of it since I know some of them. They are not, however, what most other agencies ... or specifically what the US Navy, who coined the term "Master Diver" ... would consider as such.

From your perspective with all your training and experience. Whether it's a joke or a money grab depends on the value one gets out of the program. See above comment.

Indeed ... and I applaud any diver who motivates themselves to improve their skills, whatever their motivation may come from. If the card makes you happy, that's great. It doesn't, however, change what the card actually represents ... which is someone who's completed a specified number of specialty classes (which may or may not offer any meaningful skills at all) and a minimum of 50 dives (which for most people means they're just beginning to feel comfortable in the water).

... in any other endeavor, that level of experience would barely qualify you as an apprentice ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Redshift]

For a starting diver, 50 dives is a good aim. No one was talking at that level. What was being criticized was the "master" associated with it.

And also the fact that master diver certification itself has no value. Why? Because it's not standardized. What has value are the different specialties taken. If well chosen (and you had ok specialties; I mentioned you because you took things personally) they can represent a good amount of diving knowledge, even more than for DM, but with other specialties it's possible to be a master diver without having learned much about diving.

 

[R-balljunkie]

So what! I don't see any connection with dive proficiency per se. She found herself in a new environment (lots of sharks) and got scared. There is no "overcome all your fears" specialty PADI course that leads to master diver. We should all be so fearless as you.



Ahhh! You must have the "tough dive experience" certification and the "I've conquered all the rookie mistakes" certification. Congratulations. And without the certs (training) you can pick up bad habits from experience diving with other "bad" divers, with the same bad habits, which would make you a "less than proficient" diver.

Dude,

Chill out. Just healthy banter.

I'm pointing out a single instance in which i found humor. you may not find it funny but i do and did.....especially after the round and round we had on the boat about levels of certs.

And no, it wasn’t a new environment....she's been in the water here plenty of times.

Is there a tough dive experience certification? where do i sign up?

I love bulletin boards.