Number of dives metric

[mathauck0814]

Not all agencies count number of dives. NASE counts bottom time - minutes underwater.

It's an interesting distinction. As it was mentioned earlier, in CCR training we're bound to time in water. For instruction, IANTD tells me both the number of dives and the minimum number of minutes that are required (I don't believe this is unique to that agency - correct me if I'm mistaken).

On one hand, bottom time is somewhat uninstructive. The act of simply being at depth and staying there doesn't necessarily practice any specific skill, whereas ascending and descending are arguably the more task loaded portions of the dive. On the other hand, if all you do is up and down then you are depriving yourself the opportunity to experience failures at depth or simply to solve simple problems like navigation.

It seems that having guidance for both rather than either would be better.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think people are missing an important point.

In almost all cases in all agencies that I know of (with some exceptions), the number of dives is only important as a metric for getting in the door for further training. For example, you need a certain number of dives to start DM or instructor training. Technical diving classes for different agencies also require a certain number of dives before you can start. You do not, however, get those certifications just by accumulating a certain number of dives. You have to show a certain level of performance, regardless of the number of dives.

Not only are the number of dives or the accumulated bottom times not accurate measures, they can be faked. If you want to see a really impressive log book with a huge number of dives and many hours of bottom time, I could whip one up for you this afternoon without going anywhere near the water.

For the certifications that really count, what matters is how you perform. No one is giving a thought to your number of dives as they evaluate your performance to see if you meet the required performance standards for the course. That is real metric that is supposed to be used.

 

[mathauck0814]

For the certifications that really count, what matters is how you perform. No one is giving a thought to your number of dives as they evaluate your performance to see if you meet the required performance standards for the course. That is real metric that is supposed to be used.

No doubt... I think from an instructional perspective, knowing more about the diving history of a student than just the number of ascents/descents helps me to understand whether or not they're adequately prepared to enter that next level of training. Obviously, I can interview a potential student and ascertain on my own whether or not I think they are at a level of proficiency to be successful in that training (in the time allowed) or if they'll need remedial work to begin. The way that it's stated is sometimes oversimplified and gives students an incomplete vision of what is truly required to be successful upon entry.

I'm not sure I have a perfect solution that isn't full of specific performance requirements that would scare away potential students. And in that way, the certification agencies pass of being the bad guy to us the instructors when we explain that, "Yes, you do have 50 dives but I don't feel that you're ready to be doing XYZ dive without further refinement of your basic skills". Though, even time in water isn't going to protect against that. So the value as as far as metrics go...

 

[boulderjohn]

When David Shaw died, he was doing an extremely dangerous, complex, and possibly foolish dive (when you compare the goal to the risk). The fact remains, though, that he was possibly the only man in the world at that time with the training, skills, and experience to do that dive. One of his earlier instructors, an extremely experienced technical instructor with tons of credentials, was acting as his safety diver 200 feet shallower than him. That was as close as he could get based on his experience, ability, and equipment. When he saw Shaw was in trouble, he made a brief attempt to help, but could not do it.

Had he completed it, that would have been Shaw's 336th logged dive.

We have had recent threads in ScubaBoard in which people have said that total should not even qualify him to begin training as an OW instructor.

Without a measure of their quality, the number of dives is close to meaningless.

 

[alewar]

he was possibly the only man in the world at that time with the training, skills, and experience to do that dive.

obviously he wasn't.

 

[boulderjohn]

obviously he wasn't.

As I said, the dive was so dangerous in relation to the goal that it was probably foolish to attempt it. My point was that with only 336 dives, he was among the best in the world at those kinds of dives. I have several times times that many dives, and I have nothing like the qualifications he had when he died.

 

[Redshift]

For instruction, IANTD tells me both the number of dives and the minimum number of minutes that are required (I don't believe this is unique to that agency - correct me if I'm mistaken).

TDI has the same, at least for cave courses.

 

[boulderjohn]

TDI has the same, at least for cave courses.

It is the same for other tech courses. IMO, the numbers are unimportant. I can't imagine a diver meeting the performance requirements without exceeding those numbers.

 

[altaskier]

Now someone who lives in Colorado, New York, Illinois or any other "non-diving" place...

Hey, Illinois has Lake Michigan and New York has the Atlantic Ocean, both with wrecks! Don't call them "non-diving" places!

 

[R-balljunkie]

......... I was able to calm him down but after he indicated 500 lb we got back on the boat. The total dive time was 12 minutes. I still had 2000 lbs.

Did you pay for this dive?

Old Army addage, never volunteer for anything. In this case, information.

I think the onus for babysitting should have fell on the charter, not the customer. They can have as many assistants in the water as they please. Sorry to come off as a bad dive buddy (which happens often).