Octo vs. Pony

[JimC]

I was not going to reply, having read this thread late but your reply is a contridiction by itself. You first say that you could have a leak in the first stage of your pony and not have the gas there when you need it. You go on to say if you are going to use one to sling it (i agree with this but for other reasons) so as you say it is "easy to keep an eye on". That being the case you would notice a leak that drained 19ft3 in 40 min I am thinking so.

The leaking argument was against back mounted ponies. A staged one can be monitored and should be kept with the valve closed anyway.

That said, some could argue that another LP hose on your single first stage is just another hose/o-ring/seperate mechanical component to fail (probably the single most sacastrophic failure you could encounter underwater). This is why an Y valve, H valve, or Pony could be argued is a good idea. For recreational diving it may be overkill but as long as a person knows how to use it and is comfortable with it there really is no problem. For you to make the blenket statement that "it is bad" is totally unfounded.

Jon said nothing about Y and H valves. I think they are great my self. Jon was saying removing an octo in favor of JUST having a pony bottle is "bad". I agree completely. Having only one way to access the majority of your gas is less than ideal, buddy breathing being more stressful and error prone than donation.

I personally use a pony occasionally depending what I am doing. I have a 13ft3 that is more then enough to get to the surface for recreational diving where you should not have a deco requirement. In the event of an emergency --as would be the case if I were using my pony-- the recommended safety stop becomes just that --recommended (not an obligation). I like slinging it because if I am leading a dive and someone needs air it is far better and safer for me to give them a pony and clip it to them then it is for me to maintain direct contact. This is a safety issue for me.

I don't agree with "standard" recreational accent plans my self and for much of my "no-deco" diving even a 3 minute safety stop often falls short of what I like. In an emergency that I can plan, I will PLAN for doing those stops with 2 people on my gas by reserving enough gas to do them.

As for handing off a small pony bottle, I think this is probably about the dumbest thing you could do with an out of air diver. "Here, have 13cf - just enough to get you to the surface". You then hand them off a visibly small bottle and wave at them. Do you really think, handed a bottle that small at 130 feet that they aren't going to bolt for the surface? Not only psychologically dangerous you have created the potential for another OOA emergency by handing of such a small volume.

No thank you, I want access to the much larger volume in your tank.

 

[dbg40]

Again, im an evil diver, I use an occto all the time, and would donate my 7' primary. I also, when I think it's called for, use a 13' pony on a pony tamer, and strap the hose to it where it is no problem for me to reach back and pull it loose if needed. It's tidy, clean, a completely seperate and redundant system, and in my opinion not an "entanglement" hazard. I cant see any reason NOT to use it when I think the situation calls for it. If DIR critisism gets you angry, the same can be said of every other SAFE diver that is looked down on for their own tried, and practiced methods.Although I have adopted some methods from DIR, like it or not, DIR is NOT the only way to dive. And trust me with this one, non DIR divers are fed up with being called the "S" word for not drinking kool aid to bursting.

 

[veggiedog]

DIR? In some sort of perverse way I consider that a compliment as well as an insult.

Obviously not DIR. Didn't mean to be preachy, just sharing my thoughts without couching them in "timid-speak" (I thought the first paragraph would act as a disclaimer...).

I really just like to preach self sufficiency, and I don't mind pointing out that I'm as safe soloing as many divers are paired due to fundamental differences in gear configuration. After diving with redundant systems, I feel much more confident. Sortof like driving without concern for the speed limit. Not speeding, just not worrying about getting a ticket. Before going redundant, I obsessed about gear failure and that was a drain on my dive that I no longer experience.


Out of here...

 

[OE2X]

One thing I would like to point out about DIR and it's aversion to ponies:

DIR was created by people who were spending a lot of time deep in caves. The main configuration was to be on doubles, sling deco bottles, stage bottles/travel gas. When you are diving in an overhead environment you want to keep your entanglement possibilities to a mininmum. This results in no bottles being hooked off on your back gas, knives on your calf etc... Deco bottles, travel gas, stage bottles etc... are slung so that they can be easily gotten to, dropped off or used. Obviously there are other reasons that have been mentioned earlier in this thread that are while valid are not exactly the prime reasons.

If a DIR trained diver (including DIR-f) is going to carry anything over and above doubles, we are trained to sling it. It is done this way from DIR-f to condition oneself not to get into habits that would have to be broken as you advance through your training. One of the ideas of DIR is to build on skills from the very beginning and keep them the same throughout your progression and advancement into more difficult and demanding kinds of diving.

If a DIR trained diver is slinging a bottle, it is with a very specific purpose in mind and not one based on chance - ie... equipment malfunction. One of the purposes that I have personally seen it used for is during deco. We carry our deco gas (slung) with us. That deco gas is likely to be a higher percentage of O2 and is figured into the dive plan. This is not backup gas, it is gas to lessen the deco time.

Why does any of this matter? Again I go back to diving progression. If you are used to having a tank mounted pony as a recreational diver, then advance and start laying line in a wreck, you increase your risks of potentially fatal entanglement if you keep a tank mounted pony. If you get into deco diving and start carrying 70-100% O2 slung and have been slinging your pony bottle for a few years, you will have to break your mental dependency of the pony.

Better to start off on the right foot than to have to relearn it later.

The bottom line is that DIR divers among others are trained to rely on their team if something befalls like chance. Otherwise each piece of gear serves a very distinct purpose. Is DIR diving the only way to safely dive? No, but having dove for nearly thirty years the other ways, I can say that it works for me and the kind of diving that I like to and plan to do. Those of you who haven't tried this style should give it shot before you get your panties in a knot over it.

Fish on.

 

[joe rock]

Because there are no failure modes where I would be going to my pony, it's a lot of extra clutter and trouble for no benefit, and it's a whole new set of things that can go wrong or complicate a dive.

I'm a firm believer in the "if you don't need it, don't take it" minimalist approach to diving.

If I'm catastrophically totally out of air, my buddy gives me air, end of story. I trust my teammates more than a hunk of a metal. I don't need the pony, period. So I don't take one underwater.

It's not the best of both worlds, it's the worst of both worlds.

If I can't be positive of that, I have no business underwater with that buddy.

Can't dive any NJ boats. Everyone I know of requires a pony.

 

[markfm]

Oh Pot Stirrer

It would be silly/ignorant to say that DIR is bad in any way, it's only that occaisionally people come across as if it is the only possible way to do things. I come from the perspective of someone who isn't doing the advanced, tech, things that you folks generally train to do. From my outdoors background, the analogy would be my saying that day hikers must carry the full kit that I use for multiple week back-country trips; I'm happy if they carry a flashlight, some exposure gear, and basic first aid kit, don't stress out over their not carrying everything I do in my big pack, though I would not start a backwoods excursion with someone who showed up in flip-flops carrying a PB&J and no water.

For a non-tech, pure open water environment, most people would agree that a redundant air supply is a good thing, if they are dispassionate about it. It is always hoped to have a good buddy, be in tune, that things won't go awry, but I like to travel which means I may well find myself with a buddy who I do not know, and some of the accidents posts clearly show that sometimes the seas throw things our way where even the best of buddies may become separated. I can choose to not dive in such a case, or I can go with personal responsibility, meaning to make my best attempt at a working buddy pair while still assuming responsibility to be redundant at a level I am comfortable with.

As to not having to relearn things, I believe (could be wrong) that a DIR fitout is more than slightly different from what most rec divers use for diving, so learning to stop using a tank-mount pony ought not be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Thanks for chiming in -- a non heavy-handed style works well.

Dive early, dive often, dive safely!

 

[jonnythan]

Can't dive any NJ boats. Everyone I know of requires a pony.

Doubles.

Stupid requirement, but understandable considering some of the yahoos out there

 

[markfm]

Doubles.

Stupid requirement, but understandable considering some of the yahoos out there

Remember that you're dealing with bureaucracy -- they might not accept doubles as good enough

I'm still curious -- does carrying a slung pony, or deco bottle, require adapting how you do entries from a boat? Can you do back rolls, or would the tank tend to whap you in the chin? (This isn't meant to be negative -- I've only known one person with a slung pony, hadn't thought to see how he entered the water.)

 

[jonnythan]

Remember that you're dealing with bureaucracy -- they might not accept doubles as good enough

I'm still curious -- does carrying a slung pony, or deco bottle, require adapting how you do entries from a boat? Can you do back rolls, or would the tank tend to whap you in the chin? (This isn't meant to be negative -- I've only known one person with a slung pony, hadn't thought to see how he entered the water.)

I did a few dives with a pony because it was a NJ requirement and I hadn't put my tanks together yet. I did giant strides, and I don't think I'd have a problem doing a back roll. It would be tough to get it to hit you, and you squeeze it in place a bit with your elbow anyway.

 

[markfm]

Ahh, that makes sense. Thanks.