Octo vs. Pony

[OE2X]

The arguments against using a pony lose me. If your buddy is your backup air, great. But wouldn't it be better to be self sufficient in the first place? Use your own pony if a low pressure hose breaks and then go to your buddy for assistence.

You don't have to stop being a good buddy just because both of your use ponies.

The problem outside of solo diving and carring a pony, boils down to this: If you think you are self sufficient and your buddy is equally geared then your buddy skills will suffer. A year or so ago we had a couple of DM's diving out here. Both had pony bottles - they were buddied, but both were self sufficient. One made it back to the surface the other didn't. The one who died, had drained his back gas, and not touched his pony.
One of the most important things that the DIR approach brings to the table is buddy/team awareness. I dive with non DIR divers all the time, but the one rule that I never break is that we go down as a team and we come up as a team. My sac is pretty low - .35 typically which means that I can stay down longer than most people. A dive earlier this week found me diving with a guy that had an AL 80 who was getting low on air after about 35 minutes. I put him on my long hose and we continued the dive in the shallows for for a total of 62 minutes. If he hadn't gone on my long hose I would have finished the dive much earlier without any reservations or concerns. I would not have left him to get to surface on his own or for that matter to even swim back to shore. The way I dive is to be no more than 10' away from my buddy at any time, most times we are shoulder to shoulder. This technique only came from my DIR training. If something goes wrong with my buddy, I may the first to know it.

If a long hose is great because you don't have to be so closely tied to each other why not use a pony and not be tied to each other at all?

If I have an ooa situation that last thing I want to do is to be to far away from my buddy. If I were to hand off a pony to a new diver my fear is that they will bolt. At least with the long hose I can monitor the situation. It allows me to gain or keep control over a situation gone bad.

I understand the references to cave diving. If I were cave diving I wouldn't use a pony either. I would be using doubles.

Why start on a path with singles that you will have to change when you go to doubles?

All of this said - I understand the NJ requirements, I also understand carrying a pony if you are solo diving - I have. I guess I understand having a pony for a buddy of circumstance, but again I dive with a lot of different divers whose skills range from new, to rec, to Tech3 and I don't carry a pony. I have yet to have issues with a BOC because I spend a great deal of time before the dive going over things. My buddy awareness doesn't really change between a new diver and tech 3 diver. Unfortunately if you believe that you are self sufficient, you will treat your buddy that way and your and their buddy awareness will suffer.

 

[JeffG]

Shouldn't you have an ergo in there after the comma?

Stan

Maybe...I think, ergo maybe, but the point is that if people would re-Read his configuration on post #1, and then go read this thread http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=74063

and come back and telll me that the configuration in Post #1 had any thought towards a buddy. It doesn't and anyone who gives that little thought towards a buddy is someone I wouldn't dive with.

 

[serambin]

Maybe...I think, ergo maybe, but the point is that if people would re-Read his configuration on post #1, and then go read this thread http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=74063

and come back and telll me that the configuration in Post #1 had any thought towards a buddy. It doesn't and anyone who gives that little thought towards a buddy is someone I wouldn't dive with.

But if you want to go dive with him, go for it.

I agree with you . . .
Stan

 

[Xman]

.....snip.......I will use ‘rock bottom-like’ gas planning to ensure I have enough back gas in reserve for one diver, and carry a pony of appropriate size for one diver.

I also plan to use an easily detachable mount so that the two divers can be separated if warranted.

(Later that same day) In keeping with the original question, I plan to carry the pony on all dives, so will loose the octo.

I might be misunderstanding what you have said, but from what I got out of your post it doesn't seem like you're gaining much redundancy there and are opening yourself up to extra potential problems.
For a "rock bottom" gas plan to work, you need enough gas at all times for you AND your buddy to safely ascend at any point during your dive.
By only planning on having enough reserve to get one diver to the surface in your main cylinder, you are not (by my way of thinking) really redundant at all.
You are absolutely counting on both your back gas and the pony being working and available if needed.
To be redundant I would suggest it would be a better idea to plan your "rock bottom" gas plan the same as if you have just your main cylinder...then carrying the slung pony will be redundancy for a contingency rather than part of the required gas plan.

Please correct me if I have misunderstood, or let me know of your reasoning if you disagree.

 

[Tabbykatt3]

BigTuna -- there are folks who are DIR divers, have very set ways of Doing It Right. Nothing bad to it, just a bit inflexible.
Personally, I like to dive with my regular buddy, but also know that on trips I don't know who I will be with. I dive a pony 100% of the time -- it's regular kit for me. Buddy gets my primary, I use my octo, pony is my bailout.
(I actually dive with a Sherwood Shadow+ octo -- one of the jobs that goes in-line with the BCD inflator. It's totally impractical to donate the shadow+ to a buddy -- they'd have to attach like a leach )

Places I go which require me to fly to do not rent pony's. How do you get a pony when when you fly to a dive site? If you bring your own how do you get it there? If with your luggage, how do you pack it so it makes it through? Thanks. Kurt

 

[markfm]

I remove the valve, put a clear baggie over the opening, closed with an elastic, and send it and the valve through checked luggage. No problem putting the valve back on and getting it filled on location, and no problem when back home, my LDS refilling it.
(I put the valve in a separate ziploc bag, in a piece of foam.)
When you empty it, prior to travel, bleed it off slowly -- that way it avoids condensation.

 

[gcbryan]

The problem outside of solo diving and carring a pony, boils down to this: If you think you are self sufficient and your buddy is equally geared then your buddy skills will suffer.

This seems like an awfully weak argument. If you train and pratice buddy skills then being self sufficient shouldn't be a problem.

That's like saying I dive solo because it's safer than diving with a bad buddy. I assume your answer would be then train with a good buddy and you will be even safer.

I don't see how being less prepared to handle something yourself makes you a better buddy. It makes you more dependent for sure.

 

[CIBDiving]

The one who died, had drained his back gas, and not touched his pony.

Than a doubles set wouldn't have helped either would it?

One of the most important things that the DIR approach brings to the table is buddy/team awareness. ...... The way I dive is to be no more than 10' away from my buddy at any time, most times we are shoulder to shoulder. This technique only came from my DIR training. If something goes wrong with my buddy, I may the first to know it.

Standard training is to be close to a buddy, it has nothing to do with DIR, it existed Long before DIR. the only thing DIR brings to "buddy" is a cult.

If I have an ooa situation that last thing I want to do is to be to far away from my buddy. If I were to hand off a pony to a new diver my fear is that they will bolt. At least with the long hose I can monitor the situation. It allows me to gain or keep control over a situation gone bad.

BS!! you say (the) "last thing I want to do is to be to far away from my buddy"
But you want him 7 ft away instead of 3! the Exact same arguments used for the long hose can be used for handing off a pony - and more.

Why start on a path with singles that you will have to change when you go to doubles?

Your Worst argument Yet! Just exactly how many 'normal' diver EVER use doubles?
I'll switch to a doubles set for technical diving but I'm not staying that way for recreational diving - doubles are a PIA in every situation they aren't absolutly Needed for.

My buddy awareness doesn't really change between a new diver and tech 3 diver. Unfortunately if you believe that you are self sufficient, you will treat your buddy that way and your and their buddy awareness will suffer.

My awarness gets a little more intense with the new diver - I 'trust' the tech not to do some rooky mistake that will kill him. The rest of that statement is pure unadulterated horse feathers.

 

[OE2X]

This seems like an awfully weak argument. If you train and pratice buddy skills then being self sufficient shouldn't be a problem.

The point about diving and training with a buddy is that you aren't self sufficient. My contention is that if you are trying to achieve self sufficiency then your buddy skills will take a hit.

That's like saying I dive solo because it's safer than diving with a bad buddy. I assume your answer would be then train with a good buddy and you will be even safer.

Yes.

I don't see how being less prepared to handle something yourself makes you a better buddy. It makes you more dependent for sure.

It's not so much about being less prepared or being dependent on your buddy to get you out of trouble. More to the point is that you do everything in your ability to resolve the problem for yourself, but your buddy is on standby to jump in at point along the way. It's the two minds are better than one idea. Here is a scenario that I was part of this year.

We had a three person team. One member was having an issue with a free flowing reg at about 70'. No big deal as his backup was working just fine. Myself and the other buddy were within arms reach and we both had our long hoses deployed in case Murphy decided to party. As it was, the diver with the free flowing reg was able to resolve the issue on his own and never needed one of our regs. We finished out the dive without further incident even though we were all watchful of the offending reg.

In your earlier scenario - you depicted problems that have easy solutions to overcome without further complicating the process of handing off a pony. In an even earlier post, I described why DIR trained divers don't use pony bottles. For my style of buddy diving a pony has zero merits. Now if I'm diving solo, then yes, I'll carry a slung 40 with 30 - 32% in it. Diving solo is very different though from diving with a buddy and pony.

What I see people that dive with ponies as backup believe is that they and anyone else that dives this way is self sufficient. Oh look my buddy is having a problem - well he will go to his pony and be fine, sort of mindset. This mindset engenders poor buddy skills that can get someone killed as it did in Mulkiteo a while ago. If you were diving with me, I would have my primary reg in an outstretched hand waiting for you to immediately breath off of even if you were carrying a pony. That's one of the differences of someone who is DIR trained, versus a person who is dependent on a pony.

Bottom line is dive however you like. This is what works for me and my style of diving. From my perspective it is a well thoughtout program, that can range from purely rec diving in Cove 2 to deep cave or wreck exploration.

 

[OE2X]

Than a doubles set wouldn't have helped either would it?

I don't know, but I raised the point as pony discussion and not one as a doubles consideration. Chances are though had the diver been on doubles he would not have sucked his tank empty.

Standard training is to be close to a buddy, it has nothing to do with DIR, it existed Long before DIR. the only thing DIR brings to "buddy" is a cult.

This is true that staying close to your buddy is SOP, but many agencies only to seem to do lip service to it. It's not that it's "cult" like so much as buddy awareness is a basic tenant of DIR style of diving. Call it what you like, but I have seen a lot more poor buddy skills from people that are not DIR trained versus a single DIR trained diver.

BS!! you say (the) "last thing I want to do is to be to far away from my buddy"
But you want him 7 ft away instead of 3! the Exact same arguments used for the long hose can be used for handing off a pony - and more.

Well to my thinking I can cover 7' in no more than a second. Thats pretty close. The fact that the OOA diver is tethered to me, also keeps him close. By having him on a 7' hose I can reverse frog kick and face him to see how he is doing. On a regular 36" octo hose, we are too close together for that to happen. This has been covered though in plenty of other threads.

Your Worst argument Yet! Just exactly how many 'normal' diver EVER use doubles?
I'll switch to a doubles set for technical diving but I'm not staying that way for recreational diving - doubles are a PIA in every situation they aren't absolutly Needed for.

I must not have made my point clear. DIR style dictates that your gear configuration stays pretty much the same no matter what or how you are diving. If you dive a singles rig for rec. then outside of another tank, manifold, two first stages and larger wing, your configuration stays the same. You don't adopt or change techniques beyond slinging bottles, which you can do on a singles rig. The point that I was unsuccessfully trying to make is why carry a pony bottle when you are rec diving to pass off when you wouldn't do this when you are diving doubles? It's more about muscle memory.

Fish On