Most divers get the bug after only a few dives. The dive shop has already gotten a thousand or two out of their bank account for gear and OW cert. Many of these divers do a few dives, find out it takes up too much of their time for one reason or the other, like no dive spots nearby which entails a plane flight, hotel costs, etc. or it may become too expensive. The dive shop and cert agency has only a small window to extract more of the hero's hard-earned so they immediately go to them with the AOW. Easy stuff: five dives and a test. Results: another few hundreds gone. Usually the diver loses interest, boxes his stuff up and later on sell it on Ebay. But the cert agency and operator have the money they were after in the first place. A dive shop usually can't exist without newbies and gear sales........But then there are the serious divers who want to become a DM or instructor. They must have AOW to progress through the certs. Still easy cash for the shops and cert agencies.
PADI's Course Rush
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I'm confused....
you make it seem unethical that a dive shop wants to make money??
also, statistics clearly show that divers that continue their education are far more likely to continue diving. also, what test is involved w/PADIs AOW?
it's very strange to me that you believe continuing education is only for people interested in going pro.
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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=17.761384,-64.698943
ScubaSteve1962
Contributor
I'm confused also, who isn't in business to make money?? The dive shop operators have bills to pay, and families to feed like most people! If you go in and spend thousands of dollars on gear, and never dive again, or have to take a refresher course whenever you go to dive, that's not the dive shops fault. No more than it is the automobile dealer is for selling you a car that YOU never drive!
ScubaSteve1962
Contributor
I see these threads all the time. Even though I'm relatively new to diving, I took my OW, AOW, and Nitrox in the same week, and deep dive within 2 months. I did it so I wouldn't be limited on the dives that I could go on, but know that without practice I'm far from being and expert diver. I know from having to take training classes all the time to keep up with technology. Anyone that walks out of a class thinking they're an expert is someone I wouldn't want to work with, or dive with. The person has to have the understanding that classes only give you the fundamentals to become better at what you do with time and practice. I probably will never go pro, but I would like to get to at least DM! And I'm thinking going pro means becoming an instructor.
DevonDiver
N/A
Very cynical and undeserved.
The other option being that the agency could bundle the package together as a single course and just increase the price to reflect that. End result, all those 'divers' wouldn't be able to afford it in the first place, the 'few' would never get the bug, because they never had the large cash to invest in the first place.
When I started to dive, I was a student. It was hard to dive regularly... ice cold water at home, no money for overseas vacations. I got the bug though. If the course were longer/more expensive, I may never even have started. I wouldn't be living in Asia now, working as an instructor, following my dream.
Don't blame the agencies for making diving accessible. If some people decide that diving isn't going to be their priority in life, then that's their decision.
The fact is that PADI make diving available to all... at ludicrously cheap prices. Because there's so little initial investment, a certain percentage don't have the drive to continue with it.
Trying an activity for a short time, but then deciding not to pursue it, is hardly a new phenomena... and definitely not a novelty to the scuba industry.
Back to the original question, and the answer is yes, you can do the three courses back to back to back. As noted, for many OW to AOW is ok. Others benefit more from the advanced class if they have done a little diving in between. I have no problem with taking the rescue diver course early in one's diving experience, as it is important for all divers. Before becoming a dive leader, whether with a professional credential or just because you are a natural leader, however, a person needs more than 12 dives in a training setting. They need substantial experience in the conditions in which they intend to lead others. They need excellent skills so they can focus on others in addition to themselves.
Also, an advanced diver card is just that, a card. It is the content and the amount you learn from the class, and other diving, that makes you a truly advanced or independent diver. When I am leading other divers, I am much more interested in their total number of dives and hours in the water, and how recently they last dove, than I am in their level of certification. I think most other professionals are with me on that. So do your dive education as quickly or periodiclly as suits you. But remeber, you can and will learn from every dive, whether with an instructor or not. Whether it's in a class or just diving recreationally, dive, dive dive, all you can. Be safe, have fun, learn from every dive.
DivemasterDennis
Also, an advanced diver card is just that, a card. It is the content and the amount you learn from the class, and other diving, that makes you a truly advanced or independent diver. When I am leading other divers, I am much more interested in their total number of dives and hours in the water, and how recently they last dove, than I am in their level of certification. I think most other professionals are with me on that. So do your dive education as quickly or periodiclly as suits you. But remeber, you can and will learn from every dive, whether with an instructor or not. Whether it's in a class or just diving recreationally, dive, dive dive, all you can. Be safe, have fun, learn from every dive.
DivemasterDennis
There is nothing wrong with making money. What is wrong is giving someone an AOW card that gives them access to sites and dives that require a higher level of knowledge and skills that were never imparted in the class. AOW courses that are "tastes or tours" of advanced dives and ones that are justified as "it's five more dives with an instructor" are not only a waste of time but in some cases dangerous. They give the diver the idea that they can now go out a plan a deep dive on their own.
They should be able to but if they have not gotten instruction in gas management, emergency deco, use of lift bags and lines for shooting from depth, and been told the actual risks of these types of dives they are only being taken advantage of. If they have not been task loaded in the course to see how they may respond to a situation where the light goes out, the buddy is all of a sudden OOA, and you are 90 feet down they may think it's no big deal. If they are taught and think it's ok to use an al80 on a 100 foot dive with no contingency planning or redundant air supply they are being shortchanged and taken advantage of. If you teach good habits in the OW class and really drive home their importance there is no need to go over the basics again in AOW. You can take those skills and habits and use them as the foundation for new skills and knowledge.
I don't allow people to start my AOW class unless they have their basic skills down. If I did they would not get through my class. They would end up frustrated and overloaded. Before taking on an AOW student an assessment is done. We discuss their level of training to this point. At times it includes an AOW class they have taken from someone else and they still do not have the skills or confidence they should have. So we do an interview and that may include an in water assessment. Pool or a couple OW dives. We look at where they are deficient and where their training was lacking and address that.
Sometimes we do it on the dives and can correct the problems in short order. Buoyancy and trim are things I can usually fix on someone in a dive or two or 2-3 hours in the pool. IF we can't fix it quickly thenI will tailor a training program for them as a primer. We may need to go over the basic skills and knowledge. I do charge for this but it is not expensive.
I had one diver who did a three hour pool workshop tell me we covered more in those three hours than he did in his entire OW course as far as skills went. Because he watched the instructor demo the skill, he repeated it once, and he was done. Never had to do it again until checkouts. We must have done 10 mask remove and replace in that one session. Never kneeling but while swimming, hovering, while sharing air, and while doing other tasks as well. All while maintaining neutral buoyancy and decent trim. I had him bring all of his exposure suits and do real weight checks with each one. We took 8lbs off his 3 mil, 6 off of his 5 mil, and ten from his 7 mil requirements. All of these had been determined by his previous instructor. He left for Cozumel a week later and on his return told me I helped him "cut his air consumption in half". He immediately signed up for AOW with me(he'd done it with his other instructor and felt cheated), UW Nav, and then did Rescue. I also made him wait between classes to practice and absorb what he just learned. He has gone on to do Solo and Intro to Tech with another instructor I recommended as I did not at the time offer those classes.
A person who cannot do a weight check on their own has no business starting an AOW class. Someone who cannot set their gear up without assistance should not be in an AOW class. These "divers" either did not pay attention in their OW class or they got piss poor training. I have found that the students who received more comprehensive training in the begining and in subsequent classes come back more often because they want to than those who feel like they have to. Last year at a presentation I did on diver responsibility that was based on the essay I posted on this board, I had a woman interrupt me halfway through nearly in tears. Asking me why she did not get from her instructor the information I was conveying that I pass on to every student of mine. She was ready to quit diving because it seemed all they did was try to get her to take more classes and spend more money to learn what I was now passing on for free. And that I do add to my own classes. Telling someone they have to get this or that does not work nearly as well as instilling a sense of confidence and wanting to learn more as they gain experience. Divers who want to come back for more training seem to be better students than those who feel they have to.
We include rescue skills in the OW class and I put them in the AOW class I teach because divers should have them. The person who decided it was a good idea to take rescue skills such as panicked diver on the surface, unconscious diver from depth, rescue tow while stripping gear, and supporting a diver at the surface was an fool. All of these are in my OW class and I had to put them and more in my AOW to address the lack of these skills in students I was getting from other agencies.
No one should have an AOW card without these skills being passed on to them. In addition the last dive in my AOW class is all rescue related skills. No mask swims, no mask air share swims, buddy breathing swims, no mask air share and ascent, loss of buoyancy control ascent and support, and unconscious diver from depth. As a result 85% of my OW, and AOW students also went on to take the rescue class. More are planning to this season. Not because they have to but because by giving them a foundation in those skills they want to. People who do actually feel comfortable with planning, executing, and returning safely from a dive without a DM or instructor in the water right after the OW class are more likely to keep diving. Those who are unsure of their skills and ability to do that may come back. But it is more likely they will get spooked and quit, get mad and quit, dive only once or twice a year, not become regular divers who dive locally, or just decide it's not worth the effort.
One large agency is touting how many divers they have issued cards to. BFD. Where are all those divers? Shops and mfg's should be rolling in cash. Instead in some areas they are dropping like flies because those OW divers who might have kept diving and taking courses and buying gear are not coming back. They don't feel qualified to continue diving on their own. So they don't. I have one student who I lost touch with due to his job moving him. I don't know if he's still diving. Every other one has been out after their OW cert and the majority of them are regular local divers who may not go deep or do complex dives but they are still diving. Because they feel that they are capable of doing the dives they do without me or another pro around. If they never come back for another class it's ok with me. And they know that. But most of them have.
They should be able to but if they have not gotten instruction in gas management, emergency deco, use of lift bags and lines for shooting from depth, and been told the actual risks of these types of dives they are only being taken advantage of. If they have not been task loaded in the course to see how they may respond to a situation where the light goes out, the buddy is all of a sudden OOA, and you are 90 feet down they may think it's no big deal. If they are taught and think it's ok to use an al80 on a 100 foot dive with no contingency planning or redundant air supply they are being shortchanged and taken advantage of. If you teach good habits in the OW class and really drive home their importance there is no need to go over the basics again in AOW. You can take those skills and habits and use them as the foundation for new skills and knowledge.
I don't allow people to start my AOW class unless they have their basic skills down. If I did they would not get through my class. They would end up frustrated and overloaded. Before taking on an AOW student an assessment is done. We discuss their level of training to this point. At times it includes an AOW class they have taken from someone else and they still do not have the skills or confidence they should have. So we do an interview and that may include an in water assessment. Pool or a couple OW dives. We look at where they are deficient and where their training was lacking and address that.
Sometimes we do it on the dives and can correct the problems in short order. Buoyancy and trim are things I can usually fix on someone in a dive or two or 2-3 hours in the pool. IF we can't fix it quickly thenI will tailor a training program for them as a primer. We may need to go over the basic skills and knowledge. I do charge for this but it is not expensive.
I had one diver who did a three hour pool workshop tell me we covered more in those three hours than he did in his entire OW course as far as skills went. Because he watched the instructor demo the skill, he repeated it once, and he was done. Never had to do it again until checkouts. We must have done 10 mask remove and replace in that one session. Never kneeling but while swimming, hovering, while sharing air, and while doing other tasks as well. All while maintaining neutral buoyancy and decent trim. I had him bring all of his exposure suits and do real weight checks with each one. We took 8lbs off his 3 mil, 6 off of his 5 mil, and ten from his 7 mil requirements. All of these had been determined by his previous instructor. He left for Cozumel a week later and on his return told me I helped him "cut his air consumption in half". He immediately signed up for AOW with me(he'd done it with his other instructor and felt cheated), UW Nav, and then did Rescue. I also made him wait between classes to practice and absorb what he just learned. He has gone on to do Solo and Intro to Tech with another instructor I recommended as I did not at the time offer those classes.
A person who cannot do a weight check on their own has no business starting an AOW class. Someone who cannot set their gear up without assistance should not be in an AOW class. These "divers" either did not pay attention in their OW class or they got piss poor training. I have found that the students who received more comprehensive training in the begining and in subsequent classes come back more often because they want to than those who feel like they have to. Last year at a presentation I did on diver responsibility that was based on the essay I posted on this board, I had a woman interrupt me halfway through nearly in tears. Asking me why she did not get from her instructor the information I was conveying that I pass on to every student of mine. She was ready to quit diving because it seemed all they did was try to get her to take more classes and spend more money to learn what I was now passing on for free. And that I do add to my own classes. Telling someone they have to get this or that does not work nearly as well as instilling a sense of confidence and wanting to learn more as they gain experience. Divers who want to come back for more training seem to be better students than those who feel they have to.
We include rescue skills in the OW class and I put them in the AOW class I teach because divers should have them. The person who decided it was a good idea to take rescue skills such as panicked diver on the surface, unconscious diver from depth, rescue tow while stripping gear, and supporting a diver at the surface was an fool. All of these are in my OW class and I had to put them and more in my AOW to address the lack of these skills in students I was getting from other agencies.
No one should have an AOW card without these skills being passed on to them. In addition the last dive in my AOW class is all rescue related skills. No mask swims, no mask air share swims, buddy breathing swims, no mask air share and ascent, loss of buoyancy control ascent and support, and unconscious diver from depth. As a result 85% of my OW, and AOW students also went on to take the rescue class. More are planning to this season. Not because they have to but because by giving them a foundation in those skills they want to. People who do actually feel comfortable with planning, executing, and returning safely from a dive without a DM or instructor in the water right after the OW class are more likely to keep diving. Those who are unsure of their skills and ability to do that may come back. But it is more likely they will get spooked and quit, get mad and quit, dive only once or twice a year, not become regular divers who dive locally, or just decide it's not worth the effort.
One large agency is touting how many divers they have issued cards to. BFD. Where are all those divers? Shops and mfg's should be rolling in cash. Instead in some areas they are dropping like flies because those OW divers who might have kept diving and taking courses and buying gear are not coming back. They don't feel qualified to continue diving on their own. So they don't. I have one student who I lost touch with due to his job moving him. I don't know if he's still diving. Every other one has been out after their OW cert and the majority of them are regular local divers who may not go deep or do complex dives but they are still diving. Because they feel that they are capable of doing the dives they do without me or another pro around. If they never come back for another class it's ok with me. And they know that. But most of them have.
I suppose my answer will simply re-iterate and support Andy's post here.
From my experience I did my OW and then 2 months went by with no diving (I live in Canada and dive at altitudes of 5000 ft in ice cold water and the lake freezes over in the winter). Then I went to Australia and took my Nitrox course (which is actually a non diving course), then straight into AOW. Apart from reading the book and doing a few simple knowledge reviews there isn't much to the course. I felt like it kind of coincided with OW as not much of the AOW book taught me anything new that wasn't already in the OW book (some parts were new of course). AOW is simply 5 adventure dives to give you a taste of some of the specialties that are out there. I felt like I was just refining OW skills and actually getting out there and diving while also doing a few extras (current/drift, multi-level computer, nav, deep, PPB).
My PPB section was good and probably my best dive ever as I was consciously thinking about it and keeping streamlined and not over exerting myself. My SAC rate was the best on this dive and everything felt effortless. Am I master? NOPE. Look at some of my other dives are it's blatantly obvious but I continue to work on it and did so throughout my whole vacation.
Current/drift diving was something completely new as I did OW in a lake with no current vs the East Australian Current. Let me tell you, that was quite different and an eye opening experience. Having been subjected to that I know to expect it more and how to handle myself a bit better. Perfect and advanced? Nope.
Multi-Level/Computer was somewhat familiar as I got to try that in OW a bit and the theory isn't very difficult to take in. Once I actually bought a computer I started to really take it in. Out of everything I did I'm probably the most proficient at this one but more experience will certainly strengthen it.
The Nav dive was pretty close to what I did in OW, so again, not much new here. The only difference was knowing how many kick cycles I took to go 100 ft then use that to go in a square. My compass actually had a bit of interference so I struggled with this a bit but the concept isn't really very difficult. I wouldn't say I'm anywhere near being advanced but I've expanded on what I took in at OW and will continue with it. This looks like it would be a very worthwhile course.
My deep dive was new as I'd never been below 40 ft from OW class. We went down to 92 ft for the deep portion and then did some math skills to show the effects of narcosis but I certainly am not ready to just jump in and go down to 100 or deeper without taking the deep course.
As stated by some others I feel the AOW just expands OW slightly and is a good companion course. I'm doing upwards of 10 dives over Easter then I'll be tackling Rescue.
From my experience I did my OW and then 2 months went by with no diving (I live in Canada and dive at altitudes of 5000 ft in ice cold water and the lake freezes over in the winter). Then I went to Australia and took my Nitrox course (which is actually a non diving course), then straight into AOW. Apart from reading the book and doing a few simple knowledge reviews there isn't much to the course. I felt like it kind of coincided with OW as not much of the AOW book taught me anything new that wasn't already in the OW book (some parts were new of course). AOW is simply 5 adventure dives to give you a taste of some of the specialties that are out there. I felt like I was just refining OW skills and actually getting out there and diving while also doing a few extras (current/drift, multi-level computer, nav, deep, PPB).
My PPB section was good and probably my best dive ever as I was consciously thinking about it and keeping streamlined and not over exerting myself. My SAC rate was the best on this dive and everything felt effortless. Am I master? NOPE. Look at some of my other dives are it's blatantly obvious but I continue to work on it and did so throughout my whole vacation.
Current/drift diving was something completely new as I did OW in a lake with no current vs the East Australian Current. Let me tell you, that was quite different and an eye opening experience. Having been subjected to that I know to expect it more and how to handle myself a bit better. Perfect and advanced? Nope.
Multi-Level/Computer was somewhat familiar as I got to try that in OW a bit and the theory isn't very difficult to take in. Once I actually bought a computer I started to really take it in. Out of everything I did I'm probably the most proficient at this one but more experience will certainly strengthen it.
The Nav dive was pretty close to what I did in OW, so again, not much new here. The only difference was knowing how many kick cycles I took to go 100 ft then use that to go in a square. My compass actually had a bit of interference so I struggled with this a bit but the concept isn't really very difficult. I wouldn't say I'm anywhere near being advanced but I've expanded on what I took in at OW and will continue with it. This looks like it would be a very worthwhile course.
My deep dive was new as I'd never been below 40 ft from OW class. We went down to 92 ft for the deep portion and then did some math skills to show the effects of narcosis but I certainly am not ready to just jump in and go down to 100 or deeper without taking the deep course.
As stated by some others I feel the AOW just expands OW slightly and is a good companion course. I'm doing upwards of 10 dives over Easter then I'll be tackling Rescue.
OP
Scuba_Noob
Contributor
Reading all the comments, I guess the method makes sense. Instill good habits before potentially getting bad habits. It always just seemed weird to me that you could potentially consider yourself a "rescue diver" with under 15 dives, but I understand the consecutive courses between OW and AOW.
But like Jim Lapenta mentioned, some people might just not have good habits from the first course, and adding on more skills might have negative consequences. I guess the major problem then is the leniency some instructors have in letting people pass without the adequate skill level (obviously different per instructor). Maybe there should be some sort of pool pre-test before the advanced course.
I mostly just did my AOW just so that I could go to 100fsw without dive boats/shops protesting, but I did learn a lot. If anything, I'd change the name from Advanced OW to OW Level 2.
But like Jim Lapenta mentioned, some people might just not have good habits from the first course, and adding on more skills might have negative consequences. I guess the major problem then is the leniency some instructors have in letting people pass without the adequate skill level (obviously different per instructor). Maybe there should be some sort of pool pre-test before the advanced course.
I mostly just did my AOW just so that I could go to 100fsw without dive boats/shops protesting, but I did learn a lot. If anything, I'd change the name from Advanced OW to OW Level 2.
I have taken courses from both SSI and PADI and do not think one is better than the other, just different.
However, two issues I have with SSI are that you can complete some dives then study the speciality manual then write the exam and get your speciality card. I think the dives should come after the theory, not before. The other thing I do not like is having a speciality course taught by a Dive-Con or an o/w instructor instead of by a speciality instructor.
One thing I often see on this forum is that o/w courses are too short and do not contain rescue skills. I think the PADI approach of doing o/w, aow and rescue one right after the other addresses this problem.
However, two issues I have with SSI are that you can complete some dives then study the speciality manual then write the exam and get your speciality card. I think the dives should come after the theory, not before. The other thing I do not like is having a speciality course taught by a Dive-Con or an o/w instructor instead of by a speciality instructor.
One thing I often see on this forum is that o/w courses are too short and do not contain rescue skills. I think the PADI approach of doing o/w, aow and rescue one right after the other addresses this problem.
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