"Piece of Paper Syndrome"

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

My quick "reality check" question is this? If he had a o2 hit, stroke, heart attack, while in the beginnning stages if deco on said dive..............do you know enough about rb's and how to properly deco while assisting with said emergency? You may and I am not taking a personal shot, just throwing a point of view out. You did say you went from hour dives to hour deco. Trust me dives have hurt and killed more than a few people. You may already know these things, you just did not make it clear and that, to me, is why most training is necessary.

I have dived with several guys who started in the 60's and 70's who finally got certified to get tanks filled. These guys also learned in a different day and time when more was expected. There are definitely too many "cash cow" courses, drysuit being one. To have these courses as an option is good as we all learn in different ways. OW, Rescue, any overhead, Rebreather, etc are good "taught" courses because we don't learn some things on our own. Back in those days people dived with a single tank, no deco, etc. The tank would run out, for most, before deco was close. We have gone way beyond that now.

In the society we have become, this is more than a piece of paper. Liability, carrying hazmat (yeah 02 and portable high pressure cylinders, over 300 psi according to training I have taken yearly, due to their explosive possibilities) and other such things have made this necessary.

I am not an instructor, DM (at least for many years) or a dive shop owner. On the other hand I believe in structured training mostly and mentoring on the rest. Like I said, "dive society" has gone way beyond single tank no deco diving. In theory, I agree with your point but to me it is not that simple anymore. FWIW

 

[Akimbo]

So your point is you did an incredibly dangerous thing and you didn't die, so it's okay?

Is that you point?

Nonsense. It reads like the person running the side (diving operations) was quite competent to judge and manage the risks. From the description, it is not an unusual dive profile. Throwing Gambitt in the barrel for a 30 day Sat run may have been out of the ordinary, but even that would be manageable and therefore safe.

Because Gambitt was monitored, presumably through voice communications since Kirby-Morgan hats were mentioned, it may well have been safer than the average basic Scuba open water checkout.

 

[diver_doug]

I believe that it should be the norm, for people who have a friend that they can trust to "show them the way" if that friend has both the Experience and Ability to do so, even if they haven't paid their money to some dive organization that will give an "instructor permit" to a chimpanzee if they submit enough paperwork.

I took it upon myself to contact Padi regarding this matter and they assured me that, no matter how much paper work was submitted, they would be unwilling to instructor-certify a chimp. They stated their policy was very specific on this matter and that "Rescue Diver" was the highest level of certification possible for a chimp, or any other non-human primate. You should, in the future, make a more thorough attempt to have your facts straight before making such a claim.

 

[Divor]

This is such a non-discussion.

First: you do already have some kind of certification, i.e. you know how not to die in the water on SCUBA (and to some extent CCUBA), the basics.

Second: there are a lot of instructors and DM's on the forum and I bet you didn't compare the usual averages with this thread you needed to split off from for some reason. I didn't either, because there's not much of a discussion to contribute to. And if the average was higher than usual, then it was maybe because these people know best.

What the original thread was about:

- Aspiring, unknowledgeable diver asks advice.
- Everybody says: "Do the safe thing."

SHOCKER.

 

[Jeff Toorish]

Nonsense. It reads like the person running the side (diving operations) was quite competent to judge and manage the risks. From the description, it is not an unusual dive profile. Throwing Gambitt in the barrel for a 30 day Sat run may have been out of the ordinary, but even that would be manageable and therefore safe.

Because Gambitt was monitored, presumably through voice communications since Kirby-Morgan hats were mentioned, it may well have been safer than the average basic Scuba open water checkout.

Sorry, in my opinion you are wrong. This was an untrained diver doing a technical dive on a rebreather. That is an unusual dive profile for someone with Gambitt's experience and training.

 

[theITdiver]

I agree with the above posts. I am still a relatively new diver ( <50 dives) but in my opinion there is a lot of knowledge to be gained from instructors as well as mentors. But in the case you mentioned about the rebreater, I trust no one in the world with my life like that. when it comes to diving I have a buddy for safety and redundancy however I make sure I am fully versed on every aspect of the dive I am about to execute as well as being fully versed on all of the equipment I am using. To put myself in a position where my life is based on someone else&#8217;s actions and control, I will never put myself in that situation.


What would have happened if you had an equipment malfunction that was basic however your buddy was too far away to help (shouldn't be)? Or if your buddy needed you to help with an equipment malfunction on his gear. How about if you had become separated from your buddy and he had the deco plan on his slate or computer?


For example, with just 15 dives in my logbook my OW instructor invited me to go on a wreck diving trip off the coast of NC. The deepest wreck was just at the 130&#8217; limit. I made sure to read and understand everything I could about my regs, the effects the depth could have on my regs, the physiological effect of the depth on my body, all of the potential complications and issues that could be encountered, as well as the new wildlife I would be experiencing on my first ocean dives. I didn&#8217;t do this research and education because I wanted the $15 card to keep in my logbook, I gathered this information form instructors, books, the internet (credible sources) and fellow divers and mentors because I wanted to be a self-reliant diver. In NC my instructor was not my buddy but our 2 buddy pairs (myself and my buddy and instructor and his buddy) were never far apart but I never relied on my buddy or instructor to get me back to the surface alive. I understand that emergencies do occur that are 110% out of our control and will require buddy assistance, but an emergency that could have been prevented by proper education and knowledge prior to the dive is unacceptable in my book.

on a somewhat related note, there was a statistic in the previous of DAN's AlertDiver, 1 in 10 rebreathers sold will kill its user. I realize there are alot of factors attributed to rebreathers and I am no expert on the matter but this just goes to show the greatly increased risk going from open-circuit to closed-circuit.

FWIW I am in no way associated with a dive shop. I am AOW with Rescue and a handful of specialties.

 

[sabbath999]

Let me preface this by saying I am neither a divemaster nor instructor, and my only certs are some of the more advanced OW things (Rescue, etc.), so I certainly am not trying to brag up my own professional services or sell anybody anything.

We are in the process of taking a cavern diver course with a certified instructor, who is also a very experienced cave diver who has full cave cert (although he is not currently certed as a CAVE instructor, just cavern).

What I have found most informative about the course is learning how the VAST majority of cave diving deaths were on "Trust Me" dives. Many of those people who have died in caves are OW divemasters or instructors, who just didn't follow five basic rules of cave diving (be a trained cave diver and remain within the limits of your training, maintain a continuos guideline to the cave exit, keep two thirds of your highest gas-using team member's starting gas in reserve to exit the cave, remain within the safest operating limits of your gas and have at least three light sources). All of these are completely common sense if you think about it, but so many people don't follow them because they either think they know what they are doing or "trust" somebody who "knows what they are doing".

ALL team members on a dive need to know how to get safely back to the surface on EVERY dive, and deal with either equipment or health issues that will come up on that dive.

Using your example, without training on the specifics of how that rebreather worked and on the advanced bail out procedures needed for that gear, would you know how to get you and your buddy out of a jam? Yes, he sounds like HE knew... but what if it was HIM that was incapacitated?

Training limits the risk of diving, and the more extreme the diving the more training you need. I am not saying your friend COULDN'T provide you with the training necessary... I am saying your friend DIDN'T. He couldn't have in the amount of time you describe. Not possible.

Once a person takes their diving out of the "safe CESA" range, then diving becomes a whole new ballgame.

I don't have that training, so I don't dive at those depths or in those types of overhead environments... and I won't dive like that until I am trained by a competent instructor.

I don't care what piece of paper that instructor has... I care about what he KNOWS... and I am smart enough to interview my instructors to find out if they are the real deal or just somebody trying to sell something.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have also seen, in real life and definitely here, people who are moving into professional training and discover that their grasp on the theoretical aspects of diving is significantly less solid than they had thought. Much misinformation can be transmitted that way.

Good point.

Let's say, for example, that a new diver was being Mentored by someone with 100-199 dives. That Mentor should be able to provide good, safe instruction, we would assume.

Let's say that this Mentor tells the student the following in reference to a question about holding one's breath while ascending from shallow depths:

It would take a lot longer than 2 seconds (IMO) for your body to sustain a life-threatening injury, with this slight change in volume. Your lungs are "elastic" for a reason, and a slight over-pressure of limited duration is not the same as a sustained stress on the tissues.

Guided by this advice, the new diver might hold his breath on an ascent from a shallow depth, sustain an embolism, and die. All because the Mentor's grasp of "the theoretical aspects of diving [was] significantly less solid than they had thought."

 

[diver_doug]

The OP's post seems like an attempt to make a "specific" into a "generality". In your specific example you, a certified diver, received additional training from a qualified individual and had no issues. I have no doubt that there are individuals out there who, although not DM or instructor certified, have the abilities necessary to competently monitor and/or teach divers. But just because those types of divers exist doesn't mean that mentoring should become the preffered method of learning to dive. Ultimately, as far as whether one should recieve mentoring from a friend, family member etc; or certification via an accredited agency, this is something that can only truly be figured out on a case by case basis. In general, training from a certified trainer is the safest way to learn, but there are certainly going to be exceptions.

 

[Hoomi]

The U.S. Navy discovered some years back that pilots-in-training who had spent ample time playing Microsoft's Flight Simulator advanced much quicker through pilot training. Many of the basic skills of flying are well simulated in the game, and as such, the gamers had an easier transition from the theoretical aspects of flying to practical piloting of an aircraft.

I've spent many hours on MS Flight Sim, on many different kinds of aircraft, including large passenger jets. I am fairly confident I could handle an aircraft from take-off, travel, and landing, without that piece of paper the FAA issues. Would you like to trust your life to my flying abilities? How about if I add the fact that I have had a little experience flying an actual aircraft, under the supervision of a licensed pilot?

As has been mentioned previously in this discussion, the "piece of paper" isn't just about basic skills. It's about having been trained on a myriad of possible mishaps and how to handle them. Just because I can manage to fly a 737 from Tucson to Los Angeles just fine on MS Flight Sim doesn't mean I'm truly prepared to handle a real in-flight problem or emergency. It's easy to stay calm in a simulation because nothing bad is really going to happen to anyone. I can simply start over. The same is true in Scuba. Just because someone did well when things are going well, doesn't mean they're prepared to handle emergencies.

While a "piece of paper" doesn't prove ability to deal with mishaps, it does demonstrate that the holder of said paper has at least been taught and demonstrated knowledge of this information.

I wonder, also, if your friend considered the legal ramifications of his actions. If something had gone wrong and you had been injured or killed, even if he had done everything correctly in response to the emergency, he would have been under a liability nightmare. By taking you on a dive that was beyond your training, without any form of instructor cert himself, he put himself in a dangerous position for possible criminal charges and/or a lawsuit if something had happened.