"Piece of Paper Syndrome"

[Cave Diver]

I have a dive buddy (we've been friends for 40 yrs) , who's not "technically" an instructor, but he's a Sat-Rat on the Hibernia Oil rigs. He showed up at the house one day, with 2 Draeger Re-breathers, Kirby-Morgan dive hats (complete with voice-gear) , and said "Come on, we're gonna do some "Real" Wreck diving today. Off we went to Brockville to dive the wrecks.

Being used to 1 hour dives; it was totally new to me, to be doing 1 hr Decompression stops!!!! He monitored me (including that I was comfortable), my gear, and our dive times using his skills that he's learned over the years.

So bottom line... This guy is not an "Instructor", he took an "unqualified diver" deeper than they had ever been before, using equipment that I had never seen; and yet I felt SAFER diving with him, than with many of the "Instructors" I have dove with at other destinations.

IMHO, You can have all the "pieces of paper" you want, but it don't mean crap, when it comes to real world experience.

Thoughts?

There are benefits to finding a mentor who is more qualified and experienced than you are that can share their knowledge with you and make you a better diver.

This is not one of those cases.

Tech instruction generally starts off on a gradual curve, adding new skills and building on those before taking the next step. This ensures that divers have the capabilities of handling things that may go wrong and some instruction on what those dangers may be. There is no course that I know of that throws you straight into a dive with a 1 hour decompression stop.

What happens if something had happened to your friend? Suppose he had a medical issue or passed out from one of the 3 H's of rebreather diving? Did you know enough to get him, or yourself back to the surface safely?

Is formalized training the only way to learn? No. But that doesn't mean this was a good, or safe, idea either.

 

[Superlyte27]

I've recently been posting in the Diving without Certification thread...

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/331834-diving-without-certification.html

and it came to me, that a lot of the posters advocating not to do it, are those with a vested interest in having someone "take a course". DM's, Instructors etc.

I personally know lots of Divers who have Never taken any course beyond the Open Water, and only that just to have a "piece of paper" to get a tank filled. And some of these guys have 3-4000 dives.

I have a dive buddy (we've been friends for 40 yrs) , who's not "technically" an instructor, but he's a Sat-Rat on the Hibernia Oil rigs. He showed up at the house one day, with 2 Draeger Re-breathers, Kirby-Morgan dive hats (complete with voice-gear) , and said "Come on, we're gonna do some "Real" Wreck diving today. Off we went to Brockville to dive the wrecks.

Being used to 1 hour dives; it was totally new to me, to be doing 1 hr Decompression stops!!!! He monitored me (including that I was comfortable), my gear, and our dive times using his skills that he's learned over the years.

So bottom line... This guy is not an "Instructor", he took an "unqualified diver" deeper than they had ever been before, using equipment that I had never seen; and yet I felt SAFER diving with him, than with many of the "Instructors" I have dove with at other destinations.

IMHO, You can have all the "pieces of paper" you want, but it don't mean crap, when it comes to real world experience.

Thoughts?

Quite possibly one of the dumbest things you've ever done. You truly are lucky to be alive. And I don't post that lightly. You'll never see me post "you'll shoot your eye out kid" mentality, but coming from a commercial diver (me), that was really friggin stupid.

 

[Superlyte27]

Nonsense. It reads like the person running the side (diving operations) was quite competent to judge and manage the risks. From the description, it is not an unusual dive profile. Throwing Gambitt in the barrel for a 30 day Sat run may have been out of the ordinary, but even that would be manageable and therefore safe.

Because Gambitt was monitored, presumably through voice communications since Kirby-Morgan hats were mentioned, it may well have been safer than the average basic Scuba open water checkout.

Wondering which "voice communications" he speaks of. None of my KM hats were wireless.

Oh, and just curious, but how did you clear your ears wearing the KM Helmet? You can't get your fingers inside the neckdam you know?

 

[BarrelRoll]

I agree with the OP, and I honestly don't understand why people in the diving community take themselves so much more seriously when it comes to putting trust in their buddy's hands. You put your life in your buddy's hands any time you ride in their car, go hunting/shooting with them, fly as a passenger, obviously the list goes on.

Especially in the referenced thread, the guy asking the question is a professional athlete who has a ton of free diving experience. I can't imagine a better candidate to receive basic instructions on the ins and outs of being safe for a 20 foot dive, and I can't help but think there's a motivation behind people who make money advocating training.

For the record, I advised he wait until he's certified. But yeah, the rebreather dive wasn't the brightest move based on the information given imo, but I can't say that I wouldn't do something similar in the same set of circumstances. What if he has a heart attack? Ok... What if he has a heart attack while driving your kids to the park? It's a holier than thou argument.

 

[Thalassamania]

I took it upon myself to contact Padi regarding this matter and they assured me that, no matter how much paper work was submitted, they would be unwilling to instructor-certify a chimp. They stated their policy was very specific on this matter and that "Rescue Diver" was the highest level of certification possible for a chimp, or any other non-human primate. You should, in the future, make a more thorough attempt to have your facts straight before making such a claim.

Hm ... but they were happy to certify my Labrador Retriever.

Good point.

Let's say, for example, that a new diver was being Mentored by someone with 100-199 dives. That Mentor should be able to provide good, safe instruction, we would assume.

Let's say that this Mentor tells the student the following in reference to a question about holding one's breath while ascending from shallow depths:

Guided by this advice, the new diver might hold his breath on an ascent from a shallow depth, sustain an embolism, and die. All because the Mentor's grasp of "the theoretical aspects of diving [was] significantly less solid than they had thought."

You gotta be even more careful with choosing a mentor than you do with choosing an instructor.

The U.S. Navy discovered some years back that pilots-in-training who had spent ample time playing Microsoft's Flight Simulator advanced much quicker through pilot training. Many of the basic skills of flying are well simulated in the game, and as such, the gamers had an easier transition from the theoretical aspects of flying to practical piloting of an aircraft.

I've spent many hours on MS Flight Sim, on many different kinds of aircraft, including large passenger jets. I am fairly confident I could handle an aircraft from take-off, travel, and landing, without that piece of paper the FAA issues. Would you like to trust your life to my flying abilities? How about if I add the fact that I have had a little experience flying an actual aircraft, under the supervision of a licensed pilot?

As has been mentioned previously in this discussion, the "piece of paper" isn't just about basic skills. It's about having been trained on a myriad of possible mishaps and how to handle them. Just because I can manage to fly a 737 from Tucson to Los Angeles just fine on MS Flight Sim doesn't mean I'm truly prepared to handle a real in-flight problem or emergency. It's easy to stay calm in a simulation because nothing bad is really going to happen to anyone. I can simply start over. The same is true in Scuba. Just because someone did well when things are going well, doesn't mean they're prepared to handle emergencies.

While a "piece of paper" doesn't prove ability to deal with mishaps, it does demonstrate that the holder of said paper has at least been taught and demonstrated knowledge of this information.

I wonder, also, if your friend considered the legal ramifications of his actions. If something had gone wrong and you had been injured or killed, even if he had done everything correctly in response to the emergency, he would have been under a liability nightmare. By taking you on a dive that was beyond your training, without any form of instructor cert himself, he put himself in a dangerous position for possible criminal charges and/or a lawsuit if something had happened.

Comparing O/W Instructor training to that required for a Commercial Pilot ticket just really doesn't make any sense, there is no comparison.

You do realize you're a primate...

Wondering which "voice communications" he speaks of. None of my KM hats were wireless.

We had two Mark 1 Mod 0 masks with Subcom units wired to the com posts. They worked just fine.

Oh, and just curious, but how did you clear your ears wearing the KM Helmet? You can't get your fingers inside the neckdam you know?

I'm assuming this is a test to see if he knows how it is done.

 

[Akimbo]

…Oh, and just curious, but how did you clear your ears wearing the KM Helmet? You can't get your fingers inside the neckdam you know?

There is an adjustable nose pad in the oral nasal mask controlled by an O-ring sealed shaft just above the second stage (officially the Nose Block Device). A few guys could equalize as fast as the hose could be thrown over the side just by swallowing, but most of us had to blow buggers all over the pad.

See item K on the lower photo. The exploded views (Blowaparts) shows the whole assembly.

Kirby Morgan Dive Systems | Helmets | SuperLite 17B

You can get your hand under the neck dam, it just isn't a good idea when upside-down. It is mostly done to adjust ear phones or padding. You want to wear the neck dam pointing up so if the hose fails near the surface and the check valve sticks open, water is sucked into the hose instead of you. It is a low probability these days but the alternate is unpleasant:

YouTube - Mythbusters - Compresed Diver *Gory*

 

[Jeff Toorish]

I agree with the OP, and I honestly don't understand why people in the diving community take themselves so much more seriously when it comes to putting trust in their buddy's hands. You put your life in your buddy's hands any time you ride in their car, go hunting/shooting with them, fly as a passenger, obviously the list goes on.

We all put trust in our buddys --especially in the technical diving community. And our buddys put trust in us; this is different because one of the buddies was completely unqualified. Period.

I have to say, in my opinion, your analogies are mistaken --if anything they disprove your point. What Gambitt is suggesting is that a fighter pilot says to a sport pilot, "hey, I'm a fighter pilot, want to go flying with me, I'll let you take off, fly and land the jet." Most states require hunter safety courses. We don't allow unlicensed drivers to head out on the road without an instructor. As you say, the list goes on.

More importantly, Gambitt suggests this should be the norm in diving. If someone has a pal who is willing, you simply don't need an instructor. As you can tell by the concensus of the most experienced divers on this board, mentoring is desirable; crazy risks are not.

Jeff

 

[aquaregia]

The question is "does a person need an instructor's certification to teach" is very different to "does a person need instruction". The bulk of the responses, and the OP's anecdote, are discussing whether instruction is necessary to (safely, perhaps) dive. This is very different to any "Piece of Paper" syndrome. I'm sure there are people who could provide adequate mentorship for diving without an instructor's C-card, and those people would cover the equipment, physics, physiology, oceanography, first aid, practical techniques and emergency procedures in a similar manner to a skilled instructor. Likewise, there are definitely people on this board who will argue that some people hold a piece of paper that allows them to teach but do not effectively teach to a level that produces safe and competent divers. This is different to claiming that you can just learn it diving.

I will note that you don't need to take a class to get a driver's license, something that allows you to act in a significantly more dangerous manner than OW certification does. All you have to do is show (in most cases fairly limited) knowledge of the theory and practice of driving a car.

So bottom line... This guy is not an "Instructor", he took an "unqualified diver" deeper than they had ever been before, using equipment that I had never seen; and yet I felt SAFER diving with him, than with many of the "Instructors" I have dove with at other destinations.

Zyprexa will make you feel safer too.

 

[Superlyte27]

There is an adjustable nose pad in the oral nasal mask controlled by an O-ring sealed shaft just above the second stage (officially the Nose Block Device). A few guys could equalize as fast as the hose could be thrown over the side just by swallowing, but most of us had to blow buggers all over the pad.

See item K on the lower photo. The exploded views (Blowaparts) shows the whole assembly.

Kirby Morgan Dive Systems | Helmets | SuperLite 17B

You can get your hand under the neck dam, it just isn't a good idea when upside-down. It is mostly done to adjust ear phones or padding. You want to wear the neck dam pointing up so if the hose fails near the surface and the check valve sticks open, water is sucked into the hose instead of you. It is a low probability these days but the alternate is unpleasant:



YouTube - Mythbusters - Compresed Diver *Gory*

Two things. I don't need to look at the link you listed, I can look on my SL-27 sitting next to me. It was a test questions. Also, I must be getting fat. I can't get my hands into my neck dam. It's a size medium and I'm a size 17.5"

 

[BarrelRoll]

I have to say, in my opinion, your analogies are mistaken --if anything they disprove your point. What Gambitt is suggesting is that a fighter pilot says to a sport pilot, "hey, I'm a fighter pilot, want to go flying with me, I'll let you take off, fly and land the jet." Most states require hunter safety courses. We don't allow unlicensed drivers to head out on the road without an instructor. As you say, the list goes on.

More importantly, Gambitt suggests this should be the norm in diving. If someone has a pal who is willing, you simply don't need an instructor. As you can tell by the concensus of the most experienced divers on this board, mentoring is desirable; crazy risks are not.

VERY few states require a hunter safety course, and in every instance I can think of a previous hunting license is an excuse for such requirements. I don't personally know a single hunter who's attended such a course.

Also, in this instance, it's nothing like the fighter pilot analogy you tried to use, it's more like his buddy knew he was a multi-engine, high performance pilot, so he let him fly tandem with him at the other set of controls.

The OP and his dive buddy have been diving together for 40 years. 40 years! And his buddy is a professional, commercial diver with an unknown tenure, but I'm guessing it's been 10+ years considering the other time tables given. At what point does he earn people's respect for being "worthy" to teach someone how to dive? Why, again, is this piece of paper so important in the given set of circumstances?