Regulator service: acceptable treatment?

[redacted]

Kudos to the shop for finding the leaky hose. Bricks to the shop for not communicating this ahead of time. I doubt the shop was incompetent, irresponsible or dishonest. In fact, I commend them for not sending out a regulator that had a leaky hose. It's obvious that they have some great standards but they obviously need a customer communications class.

For most shops, replacing a leaky hose is a no brainer. IT'S LEAKING! They aren't making much if any markup on the hose and the reg set isn't dive worthy with a leak, now is it? They are probably flabbergasted that you have an issue with them simply changing it out. It's a problem and frankly, the LDS is not the only one at fault here. It's just as important for the consumer to communicate what they want clearly.

Give your LDS boundaries when you bring your gear in. Like the battery, if they do it anyway, you have clear grounds for not paying them. Clearly write for them that you expect to pay $X unless they get prior approval ahead of time. Be proactive instead of merely relying on being reactive.

I was a service manager for Goodyear for a long time. I was sent to rehabilitate under performing service centers in the Central Florida area. I was often asked the secret of my success and frankly, it's the same secret I use here: No secrets. It takes a dedication to communication and frankly that's on both sides of the fence. So many times a customer would show up asking for a tune up and I would stop and ask them why. Some would tell me why, but a number of customers thought they were smarter than me and would self diagnose the problem. When I gave them the car back and it was doing the very same thing, there would always be a problem. Why? Unrealistic expectations on the part of the consumer.

So, ask questions, set limits, discuss expectations and most importantly: put it in writing! It doesn't have to be long or full of legalese. Remember, it takes two to communicate and you'll have a much better experience if you take the initiative.

Yes, something should be done about a leaking hose. But it should never be done without the owner's consent.

From my limited experience, everything that is purchased in an LDS has at least a 100% markup, maybe more.

 

[Peter69_56]

None of what you describe is normal. At least on my bench. I do an evaluation and then send a quote. You approve the work gets done. If in the course of tearing down the regs I discover another issue I stop, send a message, and get your approval. Unless it is something really small.

Your mouthpiece for example. I have one set of regs here that when I took the mouthpiece off I discovered a tear under the zip tie. Standard factory mouthpiece. These regs happen to be for someone overseas. Well I missed it in the eval so I replaced it. Charge for that - 0.00. Mouthpieces are cheap. I did note it when I sent the invoice for payment.

Your LP hose? What was wrong with it? Did you get the old one back? On these same regs I discovered a cracked and split 6" HP hose. That was in the original eval and the service price quoted included it. I would not have replaced it without his OK.

After your experience last time why did you take it back to this shop?

No extra work should have been done without your OK. Even if they refused to go through with the service if there were legit things wrong that you did not approve. For example if I see a bad hose I am going to get your ok to replace it and I will send pics or show you the hose. If you refuse to have the hose replaced then I may refuse to service the reg if I think you will dive it with a bad hose. But you will know this before I even start the work.

I advise people to not just take a reg in and say "here, needs an annual." Have the tech do an evaluation and test. It may not need a rebuild. Just a good cleaning and adjustment. Get an estimate before they do the work and ask why this or that needs done. And get your old parts back.

That they replaced a battery after you specifically told them not to would tell me that this is the wrong place to take anything.

Guess that's why I get people sending me regs from all over. These ones I was just talking about. They are on their way back tomorrow. To my customer in Okinawa, Japan.

Jim, like your style. I may have to send my gear over from OZ. I agree totally with your methods. You have to make money, but not at the expense of ripping off customers. A bit of communication goes a long way, and demonstrating being fair means people do know about the good and bad shops. I don't mind paying a reasonable price for a good job by hate being ripped and then finding the job is second rate. I suppose for the bad LDS they go hand in hand.

I have had mixed experience. Had 2 sets of regs (primary and 2 secondaries each) serviced in Cairns for about $140 each with full kits which I thought was very reasonable and they both worked fine. All the old parts came back in bags.

Had a deco reg set serviced and cleaned from a LDS where I dive, and didn't ask the price (based on trust). Got it back and was charged $25 for the mouthpiece replacement which had nothing wrong with it as I had checked it all out prior and checked internally for cleanliness and it was all good (noticed in several other LDS that the same mouthpiece sold for $8) and was charged a total around $200 for the one primary and reg (which I thought was a bit steep as their advertised price for a service and clean on individual parts was less than this). I however paid it as I didn't ask for a quote so was obliged to pay the cost. Took it for a dive and the primary environmental seal cap, seal and accompanying rings all fell off into the dark blue. Suspect the environmental cap was cracked on assembly as this was the first dive and I am particular with not bumping gear about. Contacted the LDS and asked what the cost was for replacement parts so I could replace them. No response to my email from the repairer even to this day (who recently sold his retail side of the shop and now only does repairs). Apparently he mustn't care anymore?

Anyway needless to say all my work is done elsewhere and I recommend no one to the shop now. "Good news travels fast, but bad news travels faster".

 

[The Chairman]

Yes, something should be done about a leaking hose. But it should never be done without the owner's consent.

Which is why clear communication is important. I have done my share of reg work for an LDS. I clearly remember a customer telling me to "just fix it" and then they had a problem with a hose that was cracked. I went to put the old hose back on and they accused me of trying to kill them. They figured that the price should include everything, which is pretty unreasonable. I've had customers drop off a reg and show up the next day wondering why it wasn't ready after I clearly told them a week. Miscommunication is very often a two way street. As a service manager, I went out of my way to clearly explain what was needed and why. It's why my service increases were always way above average: communication is key to growth.

From my limited experience, everything that is purchased in an LDS has at least a 100% markup, maybe more.

There is no such thing as a %100 markup. Simply doubling the cost to the store produces a %50 markup and that's usually less than full retail. The minimum a store should charge is a %40 markup is is 1.62 times the cost tot he store. However, I've seen a lot of gear in an LDS go out at only a %20 markup which rarely covers handling costs much less paying for the lights and people to even sell it to you. Of course, many repairs are done in homes with little to no additional overhead. There's nothing wrong with these cottage industries, and in reality, ScubaBoard is one of them. They make a lot more money on a much thinner margin because they simply don't have to pay that overhead.

Again, you can be a victim or a potential one if you don't take precautions when you leave your gear for repair or service. This is as true for your regs as it is for your car or appliance. You owe it to yourself to clarify what the process is going to be and what you can expect.

 

[redacted]

There is no such thing as a %100 markup. Simply doubling the cost to the store produces a %50 markup and that's usually less than full retail. The minimum a store should charge is a %40 markup is is 1.62 times the cost tot he store. However, I've seen a lot of gear in an LDS go out at only a %20 markup which rarely covers handling costs much less paying for the lights and people to even sell it to you. Of course, many repairs are done in homes with little to no additional overhead. There's nothing wrong with these cottage industries, and in reality, ScubaBoard is one of them. They make a lot more money on a much thinner margin because they simply don't have to pay that overhead.

Again, you can be a victim or a potential one if you don't take precautions when you leave your gear for repair or service. This is as true for your regs as it is for your car or appliance. You owe it to yourself to clarify what the process is going to be and what you can expect.

So what do you call it when a shop buys a hose for $15 and sells it for $30? Markup (business) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unfortunately, car and appliance shops scare me a lot less than dive shops. But they are usually run by businessmen.

 

[buddhasummer]

Which is why clear communication is important. I have done my share of reg work for an LDS. I clearly remember a customer telling me to "just fix it" and then they had a problem with a hose that was cracked. I went to put the old hose back on and they accused me of trying to kill them. They figured that the price should include everything, which is pretty unreasonable. I've had customers drop off a reg and show up the next day wondering why it wasn't ready after I clearly told them a week. Miscommunication is very often a two way street. As a service manager, I went out of my way to clearly explain what was needed and why. It's why my service increases were always way above average: communication is key to growth.

There is no such thing as a %100 markup. Simply doubling the cost to the store produces a %50 markup and that's usually less than full retail. The minimum a store should charge is a %40 markup is is 1.62 times the cost tot he store. However, I've seen a lot of gear in an LDS go out at only a %20 markup which rarely covers handling costs much less paying for the lights and people to even sell it to you. Of course, many repairs are done in homes with little to no additional overhead. There's nothing wrong with these cottage industries, and in reality, ScubaBoard is one of them. They make a lot more money on a much thinner margin because they simply don't have to pay that overhead.

Again, you can be a victim or a potential one if you don't take precautions when you leave your gear for repair or service. This is as true for your regs as it is for your car or appliance. You owe it to yourself to clarify what the process is going to be and what you can expect.

Totally agree, I've been stung a few times in the past for not clarifying expectations, additional costs etc. I'm now very careful when I take anything in to be repaired to ensure we all know what the deal is. I usually ask to be contacted if it's going to be beyond quoted price. If it's required for the repair and I actually want it repaired then I don't really have much choice but I don't like surprises particularly if it's significantly more than I was expecting.

 

[The Chairman]

So what do you call it when a shop buys a hose for $15 and sells it for $30?

That's a %50 markup, since half the final price is the markup.

Unfortunately, car and appliance shops scare me a lot less than dive shops. But they are usually run by businessmen.

Dive shops are run by business people as well. It's easy to dis people you don't know and I understand the desire to demean them as the evil LDS. It's part of the overall Scuba mentality that states if "I don't dive, sell it or teach it, it must be crap." Ergo, if you don't use the LDS then they are evil and full of crap.

Sure, a lot of Scuba businesses are started by hobbyists trying to turn that fun hobby into a fun business. Some do really well and others not so much. Throw in a soft economy and you have a lot of desperate people trying to figure out how to save their nest egg in a harsh business climate. The majority of them are honest people trying to do the best they can, so be kind. There are only one or two LDSes I won't use, not even for an air fill, and I've been in a ton of them.

Totally agree, I've been stung a few times in the past for not clarifying expectations, additional costs etc. I'm now very careful when I take anything in to be repaired to ensure we all know what the deal is. I usually ask to be contacted if it's going to be beyond quoted price. If it's required for the repair and I actually want it repaired then I don't really have much choice but I don't like surprises particularly if it's significantly more than I was expecting.

Yeah, most auto service managers started out as mechanics and were promoted for their aptitude at fixing cars. Very few have any formal education in customer care or running a business. A few rise to the challenge, but quite a few find their way back to simply fixing cars again. Again, it's easy to call these people unprofessional or even dishonest, but they are simply unable to make the transition. Personally, I try to give them as much compassion as possible. Even then, I take precautions so I am not unduly affected by their incompetence.

 

[Colliam7]

Ok I understand now. You price gouge clients with less than pristine gear to punish them for not taking care of their regulators. Sounds like an excellent business practice to me.

No, I didn't say that, either. Let's stick to what I said, not what you want to read into it. If regulator (or a cylinder valve, or any piece of equipment that I am asked to work on, for that matter) is corroded to the point that I believe it needs to be cleaned (an uncommon situation), I will tell the customer, in advance, that it needs to be cleaned, and the charge will be $25. They are perfectly free to have the regulator serviced elsewhere if they feel that is too much. I generally use GMC cleaning solution which has been running ~$25 gallon, plus shipping. I use a hydrosonic bath, and that machine costs money to acquire, and time to maintain. I usually brush the heavier corrosion by hand and that takes my time. The customer gets value for what they pay. If someone else chooses to clean regulators for less, while they are doing something else, I have no problem with that. If a customer chooses to simply rinse their regulator thoroughly after diving, so it is in reasonably clean condition when they bring it in for service, I have no problem with that - in fact I will compliment them on it.

But, I suggest it is better to stick to the original topic that started the thread, which wasn't the cost of the cleaning - it was the fact it was done without the customer being told beforehand that it was going to be done (and that a hose was going to be replaced, and a mouthpiece replaced). That is the business practice that is under discussion, and it is a bad practice, UNLESS the customer signed a service agreement beforehand that stipulated what could and could not be done without prior authorization (the 'boundaries' that NetDoc referred to). I see no problem with the $15 cleaning charge (or a $25 cleaning charge). I agree with Pete - kudos to the shop for finding the leaking hose. What is not 'standard practice' in a competent business (I am not referring to technical competence at the bench, but to the competence with which the business is conducted), be it a LDS or an auto repair shop, is not communicating with the customer. As a customer I don't like surprises - I don't like to be surprised that I am being charged for work that was done without my authorization, nor do I like to be surprised that a piece of equipment that I just had serviced doesn't work properly.

 

[miketsp]

Originally Posted by awap
So what do you call it when a shop buys a hose for $15 and sells it for $30?


That's a %50 markup, since half the final price is the markup.

No, that's a 100% markup or a 50% margin.

 

[halocline]

That's a %50 markup, since half the final price is the markup.

Well, you might call doubling the price a 50% markup, but that's just playing with words. A $15 item increased to $30 is 'marked up' $15, or 100% of the original figure. That's what double means. Now, if you have a $30 item, and you mark it down $15, that's a 50% discount. You just want it to sound like the increase is only 50%.

Not that it matters, dive shops like any other businesses are free to sell their merchandise for whatever they want, and a doubling of price from the wholesale to the retail price is very common in lots of businesses. It is expensive to run a retail store, getting more so every year, with more competition from online businesses and cheapskates like me.

I don't think awap is too concerned with the price of these items; it's the slightly deceptive reasoning and practices based on half-truths and occasional ignorance that seems to pervade dive some shops, based on stories like this one and on our own experiences. Quite honestly, if a salesman tried to tell me that their merchandise was marked up 50% when it fact it was doubled in price from wholesale, I would consider that deceptive.

 

[vondo]

Thanks everyone for your opinions and insights. As for the issues of "specify exactly what you want done, refuse accept if they don't do it, get it in writing, etc..." I could do that, but that's a huge hassle, probably won't get the intended results (which is a communicating service provider). I'd rather find someone who does that by default.

I'm sure the shop is/was looking out for my best interests, as they understand them, and they are otherwise an excellent shop. It's all about picking the parts of the relationship that work for you and leaving behind the parts that don't.

If I have an update, I'll post again.