The pros and cons of rebuilding your own regulators...

[MikeFerrara]

Around here shops get $35 plus parts for reg service.
There are torque specs for every thread and material that doesn't make it's critical to a design. I have never seen a torque wrech used even in a service class put on by the manufacturer. None of the service manuals that I have call out a torque spec or the use of a torque wrench. Perhaps you are aware of a failure mode associated with this but I am not.

If you want to service your reg and can get parts by all means do it. We are here to do it for those that don't want to PERIOD. Unless I could tripple the price it is another one of those things that I would rather not do anyway. As far as getting parts that is between you and the manufacturer. They don't listen to me. Dive shops will not ban together and lobby for you to be able to buy parts. Dive shops don't usually even talk to each other. We can't even get parts ourselves unless we first buy a dealership.

This entire thread is very melodramatic and a vivid display of inexperience.

 

[Genesis]

Around here shops get $35 plus parts for reg service.
There are torque specs for every thread and material that doesn't make it's critical to a design. I have never seen a torque wrech used even in a service class put on by the manufacturer. None of the service manuals that I have call out a torque spec or the use of a torque wrench. Perhaps you are aware of a failure mode associated with this but I am not.

Two, actually:

1. A too-loose part can come apart without warning. This could be very bad.

2. A too-tight fastener can either gall (destroying your ability to get it apart later) or damage the fastener and fail later without warning. The latter failure mode is of particular concern for swivel turrets on first stages, which are held on with a single bolt through the center. Over-tightening of this fastener will "waist" it and it can then fail under pressure at depth, particularly if stressed somehow (say from impact with an overhead, etc.) The result will be a catastrophic failure as the entire turret with all hoses attached will blow off.

There are torque specs for a REASON. They are not simply for amusement. This is true for ANY application where you actually care about a particular part (1) not coming apart when its not supposed to, and (2) not being damaged.

I showed, above, why these specs are important - I nearly lost a $50,000 diesel engine in my boat this spring due to cavalier disregard for these specifications by a so-called "professional mechanic." One who did not, by the way, refund his service charges for his incompetence (they DID eat the above-head parts for that cylinder and labor to replace them, but only after I INSISTED.) If that had been a regulator and failed in the same sort of way due to the same sort of disregard for proper procedures I would have found myself without air at 110'.

If you want to service your reg and can get parts by all means do it. We are here to do it for those that don't want to PERIOD. Unless I could tripple the price it is another one of those things that I would rather not do anyway. As far as getting parts that is between you and the manufacturer. They don't listen to me.

You don't care to do anything about it either, right?

Dive shops will not ban together and lobby for you to be able to buy parts. Dive shops don't usually even talk to each other. We can't even get parts ourselves unless we first buy a dealership.

I'm still trying to find a reason why I should pay a dive shop's mark-up if they will not go to bat for me as a consumer and actually earn my business by taking actions that clearly demonstrate that they have concern for my best interest.

So far all I'm hearing is various permutations of "you need us".

To which I say "no I don't, and at some point you make yourself expensive enough - and that expense is not just counted in terms of money, but also in terms of policy and lack of support from manufactureres - that divorcing from you is the right choice."

If this point of view is representative of the shop mentality out there - and from what I've seen around here you're actually one of the "Good folks" compared to the others in the market Mike - then the day of the LDS is severely numbered.

The simple fact of the matter is that people will simply refuse to pay a full retail markup if they do not have a reason to believe their interests are being put first - not last.

And today, there are plenty of options in the form of the DiveInns and LeisurePros.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis,
I'm not sure you really get my points. We are unable to help ourselves on issues with the manufacturers. I have ZERO clout. I have one brand of regs that sells. I sell about SIX regs per year. Nobody cares what we think or say. I can't get parts myself except for a very few brands. Being that no shop would view you as competition you stand a better chance of finding a course than I do.

I have never heard of a reg failure due to incorrect torque. You would really be unhappy in a manufacturing environment we hardly ever control torque. The only time it is done is if there is a direct link to a failure mode that actually happens in testing.

 

[DazedAndConfuzed]

Proper torquing is important when one wants to ensure the proper tightness w/o deforming the body of the items being tightened or inhibiting its surface in contact to move past each other in the desired way. Or going beyond the point where the threads starts to give away. Keeping the proper shape of the body is important when there is the pressure between the two pieces forms a seal. Ensuring movement between surfaces in contact ensures movement as desired. By not overtightening, one will prevent thread or body failure while allowing the fastened part to stay intact and not come loose under repeated stress.

In regulators, almost none of these comes into play. The o-ring's seals are not determined by how tight the nugs are torqued down. There is practically no repeated stress moving parts in which it would benefit from anything beyond what you feel should be the right torque.

The swivel octo might be like what is described above in which it must have the ability to move freely w/o play. But unless you are using a 12 year old or some power freak with his air wrench who doesn't know what tight means, you would not run to much trouble.

Plus, how many times do you see those shops re-calibrate their torque wrench on a timely basis or whenever they drop the wrench?

 

[Genesis]

Genesis,
I'm not sure you really get my points. We are unable to help ourselves on issues with the manufacturers. I have ZERO clout. I have one brand of regs that sells. I sell about SIX regs per year. Nobody cares what we think or say. I can't get parts myself except for a very few brands.

I do get your point.

You are unable to, on your own, to help yourselves with these issues due to lack of clout.

You COULD, however, start a petition drive among divers - and shops if you could enlist them - to get relief.

You COULD send that petition around to the manufacturers once you had some signatures, with the quite-explicit threat of a boycott being called if the policies were not dropped.

You COULD send that same petition to lawmakers and attempt to get legislation passed banning price-fixing - bring the US in line with the EU in its view of 'price controls'.

You COULD then follow that up with action.

Of course it takes critical mass to do that, and I understand that point fully well.

Do you think that divers, in general, are HAPPY about this sort of thing? How many understand it? How many would be happy if they DID understand it?

If that ends up being a significant percentage, there is a difference to be made.

At least I'm agitating to reach that critical mass.

And in the meantime, until attitudes change among the dive shops, I'll just buy from LP.

LWang, there is one place on a typical piston regulator where torque is VERY important. That is the aforementioned swivel retention bolt. Its job is not to compress or form a seal (the O-ring on the barrel does that) but rather to retain a part on the assembly which cannot be lost without catastrophic consequences.

 

[MikeFerrara]

We are already boycotting almost all the equipment manufacturers.

You and LP can reform the industry.

 

[Genesis]

without my (or anyone else's) help.

They're destroying local dive shop equipment sales. The only question left on the table is whether you're going to sit there and watch it happen, as someone who sells gear, or whether you are instead going to try to save the business environment you are in.

I have personally bought a few things online, and almost certainly will buy my dry suit online. That's a fairly big-ticket item. When it comes time to buy manifolds and bands, I'll buy them online too. Probably my doubles and (eventually) deco regs. That'll be even more big-ticket items. A friend of mine already bought over $1,200 worth of gear - pretty close to a full kit - from them. That's another sale. We can't be alone in this; there have to be plenty of people just like us.

If it doesn't matter to you, then it doesn't. I have my source of equipment. It won't be long before the percentage of people willing to buy at the LDS and pay their markup will dwindle to near zero.

I don't need you.

You need me.

The next move is yours. If you do nothing, I can still get my gear.

 

[joens]

this discussion in regards to torque demonstrates the reason people want to work on their own equipment

Fact #1 - Most if not all manufacturers indicate a torque
specification somewherein the repair manual
I have 4 different manufacturer repair books here
front of me and they all do .

Fact #2 - if cars or equipment [ genesis's boat] were put
together without proper torque they would self
destruct. this demonstrates how forgiving scuba
equipment is.

Fact #3 -if you are repairing regs without using a torque wrench
you are not doing it right. period . end of story. period

opinion #1 -most dive shops do not use a torque wrench

opinion #2 - an individual who is concerned enough to use one
is likely doing most other things right

joens

 

[MikeFerrara]

joens once bubbled...
this discussion in regards to torque demonstrates the reason people want to work on their own equipment

Fact #1 - Most if not all manufacturers indicate a torque
specification somewherein the repair manual
I have 4 different manufacturer repair books here
front of me and they all do .

Fact #2 - if cars or equipment [ genesis's boat] were put
together without proper torque they would self
destruct. this demonstrates how forgiving scuba
equipment is.

Fact #3 -if you are repairing regs without using a torque wrench
you are not doing it right. period . end of story. period

opinion #1 -most dive shops do not use a torque wrench

opinion #2 - an individual who is concerned enough to use one
is likely doing most other things right

joens

Well I hate to burst your buble but the manufacturer doesn't use a torque wrench. The reason most dive shops don't use a torque wrench is that they were tought to rebuild them by the manufacturer and THE MANUFACTURER DOESN'T USE ONE!.

We're not reg mechanics who decided to open a dive shop we're dive instructors who decided to open a dive shop. Regulator repair was something that came later and we do it EXACTLY AS THE MANUFACTURER TOUGHT US TO DO IT.

Now who knows the right way to do it YOU or the MANUFACTURER?

Now I will repeat myself again...I am all for someone working on their own stuff if they choose. It is the manufacturer who doesn't want you to. However, when we do it EXACTLY as they tought us to do it who the bageebers are you to say we're not doing it right? If your hurt because the manufacturer won't let you play the way you want why not cut them down instead of us? We didn't make the rules.

You talk alot but when it comes to diving have you ever done anything?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...
without my (or anyone else's) help.

They're destroying local dive shop equipment sales. The only question left on the table is whether you're going to sit there and watch it happen, as someone who sells gear, or whether you are instead going to try to save the business environment you are in.

I have personally bought a few things online, and almost certainly will buy my dry suit online. That's a fairly big-ticket item. When it comes time to buy manifolds and bands, I'll buy them online too. Probably my doubles and (eventually) deco regs. That'll be even more big-ticket items. A friend of mine already bought over $1,200 worth of gear - pretty close to a full kit - from them. That's another sale. We can't be alone in this; there have to be plenty of people just like us.

If it doesn't matter to you, then it doesn't. I have my source of equipment. It won't be long before the percentage of people willing to buy at the LDS and pay their markup will dwindle to near zero.

I don't need you.

You need me.

The next move is yours. If you do nothing, I can still get my gear.

That is where you are wrong. I don't need you. I got into this business mistakenly thinking I could do some good. I was wrong. Things are way to screwed for a little guy like me to be able to help. You and LP have it covered but trust me I don't need you. I have done a few things for diving (at least locally) but that will be the end of it.