To those considering an OW class...

[Scuba Brad]

I would always argue for more training than less. I would also agree that the certifications given out today are scratching the surface of training. It makes a basic diver a risky one when diving without a DM.

Point well taken!

Happy Diving

 

[Vicente]

I've seen PADI OW weekend classes being taught in the same pool as a YMCA class. It was quite instructive to see the difference in the students. Not wading into a this agency versus that agency war, but quite frankly you are getting less "bang for buck" on any crash-course weekend format. Maybe a 6-week course takes more of your time because it takes place on weeknights, maybe it costs X% more than the "bargain" weekend course. From what I've seen you get more than double the instruction and sufficient time for it to all soak in.

Anytime a friend or relative asks about SCUBA courses, I point them at the instructor I know who is most thorough, not the one with the cheapest or fastest course. I have even subsidized relatives who said they couldn't afford the better course.

 

[Diveral]

As someone who just finished their OW (YMCA) I'll toss in a few obervations

1) the advice found here on choosing a LDS for training is very good. I got the questions, and interviewed the 2 local training facilities. At the first one I said I had some questions and the initial response was to hand me a schedule and say "here's everything you need to know." At the second one folks took the time to listen to my questions and concerns (I'm 56) - so it was a no brainer.

2) The program I did was 14 hours class/14 hours pool and then 4 checkout dives in a local quarry. My equipment and weight was different on the 3rd and 4th dives and I had bouyancy issues and ended up getting too shallow on my 4th dive and not being able to get back down. I was told I needed 2 more dives to work on bouyancy. It was really only a weighting issue, and on the next 2 dives I was fine. BUT, having 2 more dives really helped my comfort level, my breathing, etc. My wife and son did the course with me and they both had some ear issues. My wife ended up doing 6 dives as well and my son only needed 4. Bottom line was that the instructors felt we needed more time and they let us take it.

3) The philosophy at the LDS was basically "diving is really neat can be very dangerous and we want you to be safe" This is one of the things that I liked on the front end because I felt the were offering training, not just a C card. I'm a reader and I had read Shadow Divers and about a bazillion posts here before I even started training, so I understood that things can get very serious very fast underwater. People die.

4) so the bottom line, as has been said here many times is to find a program that offers good training where you feel comfortable with the instructors. In the end time is all you are really spending and try and make sure the time you spend training is well used. I look forward to AOW, etc. down the road after I chase more bluegills in quarries and do some diving in Bermuda in Oct. I REALLY want to dive the NC wrecks but now understand that I am probably a year away from being ready to do that.

Wonderful, congratulations to all of you. Some of the NC wrecks should be within reasonable abilities. The one that immediately comes to mind is the Indra. Discovery Diving and Olympus usually do an afternoon trip to it a couple of times a week. They typically do 2 25 minute dives back to back. Do this dive and couple like it and eventually you will work up to the more challenging wrecks.

 

[bperrybap]

From my perspective, I don't really see that much of a problem
with the current certification processes, especially the OW.
OW should basically keep people from killing themselves, and
to that extent I think it is succeeding.
In the grand scheme of things, there just aren't that
many deaths or injuries annually worldwide that can be directly
attributed to lack of skills.

My beef with the current certifications is with "Advanced".
I had about 50 dives when I decided to take an Advanced
cert class. I looked at both PADI and NAUI (including reading
both sets of class materials/books) and was shocked
to see that neither had any new dive skill checkouts.
I was really surprised that there was not a bouyancy skill check
required.

It surprised me in that agencies have all these specific
requirements about you must swim this far, tread water this long,
blah, blah, blah, which are very specific and concise for OW.
Yet they allow you to get an "Advanced" cert without having
to ever be competent in one of the most basic skills: Bouyancy.
Neither NAUI or PADI had hard requirements for Bouyancy in
their advanced certifications.

I be happy if nothing else was changed and there was a concise
bouyancy skill requirement added to "Advanced" certifications.

I'd love to see something as simple as maintaining a 3 minute
blue water safety stop within 2 ft and being able to hover
with your chest/BC within 2 feet of a flat bottom for 2 minutes.
The latter could even be done in a pool.

But let's face it, in the capitalistic world that we live in, its all
about the money.

To alter the certification process, change the mechanism, or
make the certification requirements more strict, you will have to
come up with a way for somebody to make money on that change AND at the same time deal with the realities of the consumer
wanting cheaper/faster/shorter courses.

So perhaps rather than trying to bash on the organizations
to change or enhance their current certifications, perhaps
it would be easier to talk them into a new one.
Or perhaps altering and bringing back a higher level certification
such as the "Master Diver" cert.

Now before you groan too loud....Consider this:

Going this way allows those that want "fast and easy" to
still have access to that route: "OW".
Those that want a bit more still have that option: "AOW".
And those that want still more can do this new level:
"Master diver" or whatever it would be called.

This offers all parties something:
Organizations, such as PADI, NAUI, etc can make a buck.
Dive shops, Instructors, & Dive Ops can make a buck.
Consumers that are interested, have access to more training.
DiveOps can now know if divers have decent skills including bouyancy.

It sure would be nice if there could be some consistency of this
new cert across the agencies, that would ensure the AOW skills
with bouyancy and perhaps a few more.

Now like it or not, since PADI is by far the market leader,
I believe that all that would be necessary is to convince PADI
to make a change and the rest of the agencies would more than
likely follow.


Just my thoughts.

--- bill

 

[Walt1957]

From my perspective, I don't really see that much of a problem
with the current certification processes, especially the OW.
OW should basically keep people from killing themselves, and
to that extent I think it is succeeding.
In the grand scheme of things, there just aren't that
many deaths or injuries annually worldwide that can be directly
attributed to lack of skills.

Is that because of adequate training, or enough people being smart enough to know they are in over their heads, or chickening out because they are not comfortable? If you consider the dropout rate RIGHT AFTER certification, I think it might be the latter two reasons.

 

[billblack]

I'm a new diver so my opinion is based on my recent experience and not years of experience and observation...with that said...
I took an "SDI" course last fall as a college course in Kansas and was unable to take the OW dives before winter set in. The SDI course emphasized use of a dive computer strongly, but the instructor..who was very competent...taught dive tables though they were not mandated.
This summer <now living in Florida> I got time to finish my certification. I considered just getting my paperwork from Kansas and doing my OW dives here with an SDI instructor, but as I am 50, I thought that perhaps I should do the pool and course work over. I enrolled in a PADI OW course, got the course materials...read the printed materials and reviewed the DVDs. Then I read "Scuba Diving" by Dennis Graver. <<In my humble opinion, the portion of the Graver book about "The Panic Cycle" is worth the price of the book, but I would recommend everyone that intends to actually BE a diver rather than just learn the minimum skills necessary to dive, read a similar text. Any endeavour that involves a heightened risk of injury or death can be made less risky by learning. Anything that makes you a more competent and better educated diver makes you safer as well as the people you dive with.>>
THEN I took the 2 weekend PADI course from a really great instructor. She covered everything in the book/DVD and provided a lot of insights not included in the study materials. She was very good and answered everyone's questions, etc. Pool sessions good...OW weekend was great...yada yada yada..
After I was done with the OW course, I felt competent to dive in pretty controlled conditions. As a realist <a realist is often called a pessimist..a pessimist is an optimist with a few years experience> and engineer-in-training I realize that where I live...East coast of Florida...you cannot count on optimum viz and current conditions, so I enrolled in the AOW/Nitrox classes 3 weekends later.
After completing the PADI AOW course and a bunch of self-study, I now feel I am competent enough to go diving, to be safe, and to be of some use to my buddy if a problem arises.
I understand the pressure to provide the OW classes quickly and as inexpensively as possible, but the student should be an educated consumer as well. OW gives you the skills to dive. I felt that the AOW class should be a part of the mandatory training.
My .02 worth

bill
off-topic babble follows:
I finished my AOW/Nitrox last weekend and am now about to launch into the dreaded "equipment acquisition" phase. My Visa is about to be punished.
I think that I'll spend a couple of tank fills in the pool here at home practicing the skills I don't feel completely comfortable with and working on my buoyancy control.

 

[jbd]

I be happy if nothing else was changed and there was a concise
bouyancy skill requirement added to "Advanced" certifications.

Why wait until AOW?? Why not teach it in OW?

If an OW student of mine takes the AOW course from me, I don't have to worry about their bouyancy control skills. When taking students for AOW that I am unfamiliar with NAUI standards require me to do an assessment of the persons diving skills It then that I know what their bouyancy control skills are. If they are not up to par then I don't accept them for the AOW course at that time. We can make arrangements to do some diving or training to get the bouyancy control dialed in and then schedule the AOW.

Bouyancy control is, IMO, a critical skill in diving and should be taught thoroughly in the OW course. AOW involves, IMO, adding other experiences in diving beyond basic sightseeing, as well as adding to the level of dive planning and responsibility for conducting or executing the dive plan.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I've seen PADI OW weekend classes being taught in the same pool as a YMCA class. It was quite instructive to see the difference in the students. Not wading into a this agency versus that agency war, but quite frankly you are getting less "bang for buck" on any crash-course weekend format. Maybe a 6-week course takes more of your time because it takes place on weeknights, maybe it costs X% more than the "bargain" weekend course. From what I've seen you get more than double the instruction and sufficient time for it to all soak in.

Anytime a friend or relative asks about SCUBA courses, I point them at the instructor I know who is most thorough, not the one with the cheapest or fastest course. I have even subsidized relatives who said they couldn't afford the better course.

And how many students and instructors were in those classes? I offer an extended weekend course for a competetive price but limit the number of students to 4 divers. And my wife and I are both there for most of the course, so they are actually getting 2 instructors for 4 divers. Ratios need to be taken into consideration when evaluating courses. I was a part of the crash courses you're referring to for a short time before I became independent. One of the reasons I left the LDS was because of the 8-16 student classes that were held over a weekend - 8 hours of pool time for all those students. My 2 student courses now get the same or longer amount of pool time, but they get closer supervision and instruction and are better divers when they're done.

Same goes for my other classes. I don't run my Rescue course over 4 or 6 weeks. There's no need. The Rescue course I took was a 4 week course which met 3hrs/wk and we spent about 10 hours in OW scenarios. We also had 10 divers in the classroom/pool sessions. I run my Rescue course over a weekend, limit it to 6 divers, have 2 instructors, and it ends up being about the same length of time as the 10 diver course I went through.

Length of class is a good indicator of quality of class, but not the only one. Ratios are a much better indicator. A course that runs 20 hours with 2 instructors and 4 students is going to be much better than a course that runs 20 hours with 2 instructors and 16 students (agency standards do allow this). A lot of independent instructors will run classes with smaller ratios and lower prices. We don't have the overhead a LDS has or the time constraints. Make sure you evaluate the program as a whole, not just based on time.

 

[Skinsfan1311]

I took my open water class from a university program. The agency that program used is irrelevant. As I recall, the program consisted of 15 hours of lecture and 21 hours in the pool.
Anyway IMHO, ten hours is simply not enough for the average new diver to learn and practice all the skills they need to become comfortable with their gear or their environment. This has led to time spent on a specific skill to be reduced or the skill virtually eliminated all together. These sacrificed skills often show up later as new classes.

.

I agree with this post. I did the same thing, (university w 15hrs lecture and 21 hrs in the pool....not including a practice dive we did in the quarry with our instructors before we did our OW check-out dives), and I'm glad I did. The instruction was very thorough and I feel like I came out a better diver for it.

This was especially noticeable to me, after observing far more experienced divers, on a few dive trips. I can't help but to think that their training, (or lack thereof), was subpar......

 

[Debay777]

wow, 36 pages. 359 posts. and still growing. I am a new diver. I have my PADI OW and am enrolled in an upcoming AOW (which I need to get to Rescue). MY class was 4 days. I dont recall the breakdown of hours but most of it seemed like pool time mixed with OW and a dash of classtime. The instructor was great. he made sure we all knew our stuff. Do I think the class could have been "BETTER"? Yes. Do I think it would have been economical? NO. a 4,6,or 8 week class would be nice, dont get me wrong. But how much would it cost? I just barely had enough to scrape together some gear. If it wasnt for the break on being a public safety member I would still be wondering what its like to dive. I think that PADI and NAUI and all the others do an adequte job of getting people in the water fairly safely. Do I think that we could all use more time to practice individual skills? Yes. By God, I still dont have my bouancy under full control. But I am learning. PADI stresses meeting new divers and taking more classes and I think that is more or less the core of this thread. By meeting other divers and going out with them you have the opportunity to learn tricks and skills not taught in BOW. By taking more classes you are diving with your same LDS. They are familiar with your skill level and already know where you are at and how to help you. So in a way they are promotong that you gain more skills, just not in a steady 8 week course. I dont knock the long programs at all. If i had the money/opportunity I would have or would take one. I think I would be lots more comfortable in the water than I am now. I guess you have to look at the stats. Injuries dont appear to be on the rise. Something is working. It all boils down to personal opinion and skill level mixed in with the ability of your instructor to make sure you are doing everything that you should be in order to pass. Those that dont do well in the BOW are less likely to go out and dive anyway. Either they give it up or they seek more help until they get it right. long detailed skill based class vs short get em certified class. I dont really know who is more right.