To those considering an OW class...

[jbd]

I just took a two day class a few weeks ago, and I'm diving fine. I got my bouyancy in control (not perfect but I never......silt up the bottom), .

That you are aware of. Most people don't realize that you don't need to actually touch anyting to stir up the silt. Many people using the flutter kick can stir silt from as much as 6 feet above the bottom and they are also usually 6 to 10 feet ahead of where the silt is being stirred up. It's the people following, that realize this.

 

[Storm]

First off many may of you, who have read some of other posts on this subject, know that I am one who would rather see the courses lengthened, and the standards increased so my first response may seem out of step with my general view on the topic. But I have always maintained that while the standards should be raised, I have always meant within the context of practical diving, and practical diving skills for real world recreational diving.

The following is the reason for the disclaimer….

, we also as an OW class had to do additional skills such as ditch and don (swim to the bottom remove all gear, swim to the surface, tred water, swim back down and put all your gear back on ) and stuff like that.

Totally disagree with the second portion of this drill. We are recreational divers, not military assault divers. Basic logic….if I have to doff my gear and shoot for the surface, you can be darned sure I won’t be diving back down to get it right away and when I do go down for it, I’ll be in another rig. This is a skill that has more to do with machismo and than is does with practical diving. Tell me a serious real life recreational diving situation where you would doff your gear then head back down to put it back on.

Now on to the OP topic…

Exactly my point. If we were held to standards that guaranteed student diver to emerge for OW certification being well trained, competant, capable, proficient, able to handle crisis situations, the enjoyment would be instantaneous AND lasting..

Ah someone hits the nail partially on the head. THE RSTC standards were written by a committee comprised of the various agencies. That’s a little like getting the fox to design the chicken coop’s security system. As long as they have a say in establishing the standards and are in the business of applying the standards, there is a conflict of interest.

I agree that the situation is bad, but the solution is not so simple as upping the standards.

Actually the first step in the process would be just that; increase the baseline standards, and course curriculum. The next step is to put in place a governing body, with punitive powers, that operates independently from the agencies, and retail/manufacturing entities.(an ombudsman so to speak). Any agency/instructor that fails to comply with the full curriculum and standards, simple looses the license to certify divers.

What I'm getting at is not changing the dive industry as a whole, but have a shop or two step up and offer up a CHOICE, maybe over time with choices the market will push dive training to the longer schedules, but how can you even give it a chance when there is no option for it.

Giving the potential student the choice of taking a shorter program (I assume for less costs as well) is not the answer. In today’s culture of instant gratification and cheaper is better, all you would accomplish by establishing the course length by shear market pressure would be the death of the long course format. The majority of new divers would opt for the shorter and cheaper format. Need proof of this….PADI

It is happening in all areas of education. Does that mean that graduates are less prepared for graduation? Should we demand that every one get an advanced degree, or require 160 hours to graduate?

I do not know about students being prepared for graduation, but when I see resumes come across my desk from recently graduated students, most of whom cannot construct a proper sentence, I might surmise that while they’re deemed ready for graduation they are not ready to work for my company. Juxtaposed to diving, the student may be ready for certification, by the current standards, but that does not mean that they have sufficient skills to dive competently.

I have voiced, many times here, the opinion, as a new diver and part of the target audience, that the standards need to be raised. Part of that is the elimination of the ability to move directly from OW to AOW without any logged dives other that those obtained in the OW course.

From a while a go.

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=127527&page=20

 

[beach89]

That you are aware of. Most people don't realize that you don't need to actually touch anyting to stir up the silt. Many people using the flutter kick can stir silt from as much as 6 feet above the bottom and they are also usually 6 to 10 feet ahead of where the silt is being stirred up. It's the people following, that realize this.

I look behind to make sure I don't silt. And frog kick. I plan to do most of my diving in Lake Erie so I really need to get good at not silting up the bottom.

 

[jbd]

Totally disagree with the second portion of this drill. We are recreational divers, not military assault divers....... This is a skill that has more to do with machismo and than is does with practical diving. Tell me a serious real life recreational diving situation where you would doff your gear then head back down to put it back on.

Not sure the military ever did this; maybe they did maybe they didn't. I do have some old books on recreational scuba and this skill is covered quite well. In the old books it really doesn' seem to be a matter of machismo at all. Rather it seems to be a matter of economy. The situation seems to be that there are two buddies that are going diving but there is only one set of gear. One buddy does a short dive while the other buddy watches from the surface. Diver #1 doffs the gear and surfaces. Diver # 2 then dives down to the gear and puts it on and does a short dive. Overall this seems to be related to UW hunting/collecting lobsters etc, etc. So at some point this was considered a practical skill set in recreational diving. Whether the skill set is practical for diving today is questionable. As a watermanship/confidence skill, I think it has its uses in training. I might use it but would most likely not make it a pass/fail criteria for the course.

 

[BiggDawg]

It is happening in all areas of education. Does that mean that graduates are less prepared for graduation? Should we demand that every one get an advanced degree, or require 160 hours to graduate?

I do not know about students being prepared for graduation, but when I see resumes come across my desk from recently graduated students, most of whom cannot construct a proper sentence, I might surmise that while they’re deemed ready for graduation they are not ready to work for my company. Juxtaposed to diving, the student may be ready for certification, by the current standards, but that does not mean that they have sufficient skills to dive competently.

Exactly the point I was making.

So where do those University students get the skills or ability to move from University to productive employee? Through experience. They have learned what they have learned, but to apply it they must practice and gain experience.

To apply this to diving, the answer is not to lengthen the class any more than to lengthen the requirements for graduation. It is to get out and dive within the limits of one's training and experience, and through that to gain experience and skill. The answer lies not in the classroom, but in the practice (practice, practice).

 

[TheRedHead]

Overall this seems to be related to UW hunting/collecting lobsters etc, etc. So at some point this was considered a practical skill set in recreational diving. Whether the skill set is practical for diving today is questionable. As a watermanship/confidence skill, I think it has its uses in training. I might use it but would most likely not make it a pass/fail criteria for the course.

Interesting. I thought this skill was a "confidence builder" like buddy breathing.

 

[jbd]

I look behind to make sure I don't silt. And frog kick. I plan to do most of my diving in Lake Erie so I really need to get good at not silting up the bottom.

The frog kick is good but can also result in silt stirring, especially when one is on a wreck. In this case the stirring takes place on the vertical surfaces as the flow of water is forced backwards by the execution of the kick. Stirring of silt also happens with hand/ arm movements. I recall one of my dives on the Sandusky in Lake Huron or is it Lake Michigan. Any ways, As we first arrived at the areck the viz was very nice indeed and we were a group very concerned with not stirring up the silt and with good UW skills and control. As we left the Sandusky I looked back and saw that the viz around the wreck had deteriorated noticeably---still diveable but not as clear as it had been.

What are your diving plans/goals in Lake Erie?

 

[jbd]

The answer lies not in the classroom, but in the practice (practice, practice).

I think the answer does lie in the classroom/confined water training. Not that the courses really need to be longer i.e. 8, 10, 12 weeks 3 times per week, but that they must focus on teaching the right stuff. Expectations need to be raised through appropriate content, both academically an in the water. Enough practice time needs to be allotted to become reasonably proficient within the course structure.

The philosophy nowadays seems to be teach just barely enough to get the person in teh water and then turn them loose to figure all the rest out on their own. I would much rather take a little more time and teach them to dive reasoanably proficiently so they can actually enjoy their diving.

 

[jbd]

Interesting. I thought this skill was a "confidence builder" like buddy breathing.

These days it is most likely nothing more than a confidence builder. The books I'm referring to are from the early '60's given to me by a friend from his early days in diving.

Buddy breathing is something I teach as an actual skill.

 

[TheRedHead]

Buddy breathing is something I teach as an actual skill.

I learned the skill too - buddy breathing with and without a mask. I think it can be extremely stressful and if not practiced often could be dangerous. I see it as a colossal failure of dive planning and gas management. You can plan for any scenario without resorting to it including loss of deco gas.