Tried sidemount - good experience

[kelemvor]

This basic sentiment is something I have really been curious about. I'm assuming you are using the term "hybrid" to refer to a rig that could be used for cold water/drysuit/hp steels AND also be used for warm water/wetsuit/AL80s. As opposed to the "hybrid" rigs that are intended to be able to handle SM and also single tank back mount.

It makes it sounds like the "FL Cave SM rig" (cold/steels) vs the "MX Cave SM rig" (warm/AL80s) is a case of the rigs being fundamentally different, so that neither one can ever really be GOOD for the other style of use.

But, I have read everything I can (and understand the limitations of reading versus doing) and what I read makes it sound like either kind of harness could be made to work perfectly well for the other style of diving just by (possibly) doing some very simple and very inexpensive modifications. This is presuming that the wing being used is of adequate lift capacity, of course.

Beyond that, what more is there to making a (for example) warm water/AL80 rig work for cold water/HP steels than maybe moving or adding a D-ring or Drop-D-ring to the waist belt? Or maybe (MAYBE) adding a butt plate with rails? And maybe changing the bungees around a bit, possibly changing them to thinner or thicker or a different length or maybe even changing them from a simple loop to using a ring? All stuff that is pretty cheap and easy (except maybe a butt plate not being cheap).

From what it seems like (to me, who hasn't gotten wet in SM yet), it seems like changing a cold water/steels rig to work just fine with warm water/AL80s or vice versa is something that could be done for pretty little expense and, once you sort yourself out in both configurations, you could change back and forth pretty quickly (if it even takes any time at all).

I do realize there may be some specific rigs that wouldn't be easy to change around. Maybe they have things that are sewn and not easy to change, for example. But, at least for the newer style of rigs that seem to be coming out, it looks like it would be totally feasible to have one rig that would work very well for either style of SM diving, though possibly requiring some cheap and simple mods to how it comes from the factory. I'm thinking of rigs like the xDeep Stealth, the Apeks WSX, possibly the Hollis Katana, the Razor, and even the DECO rig. Some of those possibly needing a change to a wing with more lift, depending on specifics of the cold water diving plans.

Is that not the case?

I can't wait to see the answers to this. I dive sidemount and I've been curious about this as well. My assumption thus far has been that it's a function of lift vs drag. My sidemount bcd is a diverite nomad xt and it has tons of lift. It will handle steel or aluminum or whatever tanks. It is big and bulky and therefore causes a lot of drag. AFAIK that's the only drawback to it. However, I'm curious to hear if I'm wrong - I've never dived any other sidemount BCD.

AFAIK a "hybrid" is like you said, convertible between backmount and sidemount. Kind of like those that make a sidemount sandwich out of two backplates and a standard wing or a purpose built convertible bc.

 

[raftingtigger]

OK, I'll admit I'm a relative newbie to the whole SM thing, and have NO desire to EVER be in a submerged cave ;-) - so I guess no cookies for me. What I like is the interchangeability of the style. Harness is separate from wing. Pick the combo for the dive demands. Use what tanks you want. Put the weight where it does the best job with trim. Carry the tanks separately, or clipped on. The combos are endless.

To the poster that said they would just settle for common side valves at home because that is what they will get traveling: Why dive sub-optimally at home? Yes, there are lots of ways to use 2 common side valves, but unless you prefer that way, why settle for it?

OK, for this I'm donning my NOMEX suit.

Want several different configuration wings for very little cost? I'm experimenting (and super pleased so far) with a new fabric (Cordura heavily coated on one side with PVC) for $8/yard that heat seals with a household iron beautifully (better than the designed heat seal fabric I have been using). 1 yard is enough to make at least 2 cold water wings, or 3-4 warm water ones. Tools needed are scissors, household iron, grommets. Of course you need the bladder nuts, OPV, and LPI assembly - but that can transfer wing to wing. FYI, I have been diving DIY wings for 2-3 years and probably 150 dives now.

​

 

[stuartv]

OK, I'll admit I'm a relative newbie to the whole SM thing, and have NO desire to EVER be in a submerged cave ;-) - so I guess no cookies for me. What I like is the interchangeability of the style. Harness is separate from wing. Pick the combo for the dive demands. Use what tanks you want. Put the weight where it does the best job with trim. Carry the tanks separately, or clipped on. The combos are endless.

To the poster that said they would just settle for common side valves at home because that is what they will get traveling: Why dive sub-optimally at home? Yes, there are lots of ways to use 2 common side valves, but unless you prefer that way, why settle for it?

OK, for this I'm donning my NOMEX suit.

Want several different configuration wings for very little cost? I'm experimenting (and super pleased so far) with a new fabric (Cordura heavily coated on one side with PVC) for $8/yard that heat seals with a household iron beautifully (better than the designed heat seal fabric I have been using). 1 yard is enough to make at least 2 cold water wings, or 3-4 warm water ones. Tools needed are scissors, household iron, grommets. Of course you need the bladder nuts, OPV, and LPI assembly - but that can transfer wing to wing. FYI, I have been diving DIY wings for 2-3 years and probably 150 dives now.

​

Think you can make this and sell it for cheaper than they do?

DECO - Dive Equipment Company - DECO Sidemount Bladder 22# w/ 19 inch Hose

If so, I would probably be interested in some point. I just got an Apeks rig with a 45# wing. Once I learn how to dive it, get it configured how I like it, etc., I think I might be interested in getting a smaller "warm water" wing to use with it. I haven't priced the Apeks 25# wing yet, but I'm expecting it to be quite a bit more (even at shop cost) than the DECO wing. Thus, I figured I might end up getting the DECO wing, instead of the Apeks one. I'm cheap. If you make something functionally equivalent, I would definitely consider buying one.

Do you think the heat seal on a wing like that will hold up to many multiple times of inflating the wing to the point that the OPV dumps gas? And if it's left in the back of a car in the direct sun it won't get so hot that it loses it's "grip"?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I also read the manual for the first time... probably should have done that before using it in the water.

One thing I love about Shearwaters is the ui is so good you don't need to read the manual (but never hurts).

 

[stuartv]

I can't wait to see the answers to this. I dive sidemount and I've been curious about this as well. My assumption thus far has been that it's a function of lift vs drag. My sidemount bcd is a diverite nomad xt and it has tons of lift. It will handle steel or aluminum or whatever tanks. It is big and bulky and therefore causes a lot of drag. AFAIK that's the only drawback to it. However, I'm curious to hear if I'm wrong - I've never dived any other sidemount BCD.

AFAIK a "hybrid" is like you said, convertible between backmount and sidemount. Kind of like those that make a sidemount sandwich out of two backplates and a standard wing or a purpose built convertible bc.

The impression (could be completely WRONG) I've gotten is that some people feel like, even if you take a cold water/steel setup and swap out the wing for a smaller one, it still won't be optimal for warm water/AL80s. And, again, the impression I have gotten is they feel like it's not just a matter of a few quick and simple changes to achieve optimal function with a AL80s.

I have a feeling that the real deal is that my impression is correct - for some (older) styles of SM rigs. I *think* that the newer ones (as listed in my previous post) are such that it really IS relatively quick, easy, and cheap to use the same rig for both (cold water/steels and warm water/AL80s) and have "optimal" results. With the possible exception of the expense of a bigger or smaller wing and possibly (MAYBE) with the expense of a butt plate with rails (though even that seems to have fallen out of favor even for drysuit and steels).

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Steel tanks require a butt plate/rails. Many harnesses have add on butt plates (like Xdeep) to solve this. One of the (minor) benefits of aluminum is the ability to go inverted and the cylinders stay with you. I do not enjoy surface swimming in my back with steel tanks. Minor issue, but I do like being able to fin upside down.

 

[kelemvor]

The impression (could be completely WRONG) I've gotten is that some people feel like, even if you take a cold water/steel setup and swap out the wing for a smaller one, it still won't be optimal for warm water/AL80s. And, again, the impression I have gotten is they feel like it's not just a matter of a few quick and simple changes to achieve optimal function with a AL80s.

I have a feeling that the real deal is that my impression is correct - for some (older) styles of SM rigs. I *think* that the newer ones (as listed in my previous post) are such that it really IS relatively quick, easy, and cheap to use the same rig for both (cold water/steels and warm water/AL80s) and have "optimal" results. With the possible exception of the expense of a bigger or smaller wing and possibly (MAYBE) with the expense of a butt plate with rails (though even that seems to have fallen out of favor even for drysuit and steels).

My diverite nomad xt does not have a replaceable wing. The wing "is" the bcd, kind of like you have in jacket style bcd's. There is no hard plate on the back of it at all. The closest you get is the butt plate, but even that is somewhat flexible.

Steel tanks require a butt plate/rails. Many harnesses have add on butt plates (like Xdeep) to solve this. One of the (minor) benefits of aluminum is the ability to go inverted and the cylinders stay with you. I do not enjoy surface swimming in my back with steel tanks. Minor issue, but I do like being able to fin upside down.

Ah, I didn't realize you would not need a butt plate with aluminum tanks. You don't have any problem keeping the tanks horizontal when empty or inverted without the plate?

I can swim inverted with the steel tanks, and do a surface swim on my back. Neither are particularly enjoyable and unless I was trying to prove something I would avoid it. It's easy enough to float on the surface while vertical, as you would when waiting for a pickup after a drift dive.

 

[EricTheDood]

One thing I love about Shearwaters is the ui is so good you don't need to read the manual (but never hurts).

 

[stuartv]

Steel tanks require a butt plate/rails. Many harnesses have add on butt plates (like Xdeep) to solve this. One of the (minor) benefits of aluminum is the ability to go inverted and the cylinders stay with you. I do not enjoy surface swimming in my back with steel tanks. Minor issue, but I do like being able to fin upside down.

What is it that makes a steel tank require those rails? I thought the Drop D-rings that are coming on some rigs now make it where you can use steels without the butt plate.

I saw a post (maybe earlier in this thread?) about adding D-rings towards the front of your waist belt that you could clip steels to, in the case that you were on the surface and wanted to swim on your back. Does that not work? I suppose the top of the tank could still droop down behind you when you do that?

 

[stuartv]

My diverite nomad xt does not have a replaceable wing. The wing "is" the bcd, kind of like you have in jacket style bcd's. There is no hard plate on the back of it at all. The closest you get is the butt plate, but even that is somewhat flexible.

Right. But, as long as the wing is of adequate lift, is there much required to configure the rig to work fine for warm/AL80 or for cold/steel?

And if the wing is big, for use with cold/steel, is it really that much of a drag in the water for warm/AL80? It seems like you'd have almost no air in it for warm/AL80, so it wouldn't make much difference if you have a big wing versus a small one. It's not like a back mount tank wing where it would be tacoing up around the tank. With a SM wing, bungees would keep it wrapped around you, so if it's almost empty, big or small wouldn't really matter.

This conversation is really making me wish the correct wing for my new rig had come in yesterday, so I could just go try it out this weekend. Hopefully the replacement that is arriving next week will actually be the right wing....