Using resuscitation mask in water

How should inwater rescue mask be used?

  • With 2 hands on the mask only.

    Votes: 8 14.8%
  • With one hand is adequate.

    Votes: 7 13.0%
  • Forget the mask, and do mouth to mouth or mouth to nose.

    Votes: 9 16.7%
  • Just tow them to the shore, and do real CPR on dryland.

    Votes: 30 55.6%

  • Total voters
    54

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GEEZ, 5 people voted for one hand holding the mask and doing rescue breath? Are these folks for real?

Try to do a one hand mask hold on mannican Annie on dry land, and tell me if her chest inflates! Now try to do that when you are floating in water....
 
Argh, stop freaking me out!! In the middle of rescue diver and wednesdays D Day for me learning rescue breaths. This thread giving my second thoughts third thoughts!! So tow the crap outta my poor victim and hope they dont fail me?!
 
I'm a Respiratory Therapist, and this is a VERY interesting Thread.
 
Mouth to snorkel works great if you just a simple J type snorkel (and dive with one). In fact that's the fasted way I know to breathe and transport a victim.
 
Mouth to snorkel works great if you just a simple J type snorkel (and dive with one). In fact that's the fasted way I know to breathe and transport a victim.

The problem with that is that a lot of the snorkel space in that scenario is dead air, which isn't really going to move that much, so in effect as you keep ventilating the patient with the snorkel, you're basically just blowing more CO2 into the patient's lungs and decreasing the amount of O2 that the body's getting. Now, it may be enough O2 to keep the patient alive, but I'd have to see it to believe it. Although the patient is dead without any help so I guess it's better than nothing.

And yes, you can hold a good seal with a pocket mask with one hand. We're trained to do it routinely when giving CPR because one hand has to be on the mask while the other hand is on the bag connected to the mask. That being said, that's with the patient on the ground so obviously you have resistance when you push the mask against the patient because the patient can't sink into the ground, so that's an entirely different scenario than the patient floating on water where you don't have that same resistance. I would be /very/ surprised if someone could get a good seal without using both hands, and even with both hands, it's a toss up.

Unless you get the patient back within several minutes though, there's probably going to be some degree of brain damage, so honestly if you're boat diving the best thing is to get them back on the boat as soon as possible, this means temporarily saying screw the CPR and hauling them up onto deck where definitive CPR can be given, and hopefully if one's on board, an AED can be administered which is what's going to bring them back; the CPR just keeps the body alive but without that electric shock to kickstart the heart, patient's screwed regardless. If you're shore diving...well, I don't want to sound pessimistic but unless you can get onto shore within a minute or two, that patient is probably not coming back anyway. The effectiveness of the AED decreases substantially with each minute after cardiac arrest that it's not given and there's plenty of studies done to prove this fact.

Moral of the story is keep breathing. :wink:

Forgot to add one tiny thing...look up the statistics on patients who are brought back from traumatic cardiac arrest. Medical cardiac arrest has crappy odds but it's still possible. Traumatic arrest has a 1% success rate because the CPR or the AED shock doesn't fix the reason the heart stopped in the first place. It's great to give CPR and try to keep the person alive or save them, but just be realistic, so if you don't get them back you don't get the notion that somehow you could have done more and it's your fault since it's not if you at least tried.
 
The problem with that is that a lot of the snorkel space in that scenario is dead air, which isn't really going to move that much, so in effect as you keep ventilating the patient with the snorkel, you're basically just blowing more CO2 into the patient's lungs and decreasing the amount of O2 that the body's getting. Now, it may be enough O2 to keep the patient alive, but I'd have to see it to believe it. Although the patient is dead without any help so I guess it's better than nothing.
It is, in point of fact, the most effective way to deliver rescue breaths whilst transporting. A little extra CO2 may, in fact, be a good thing. I'd be glad to demonstrate it to you, any time. Short of that, see Al Pierce's book: Scuba Lifesaving.
And yes, you can hold a good seal with a pocket mask with one hand. We're trained to do it routinely when giving CPR because one hand has to be on the mask while the other hand is on the bag connected to the mask. That being said, that's with the patient on the ground so obviously you have resistance when you push the mask against the patient because the patient can't sink into the ground, so that's an entirely different scenario than the patient floating on water where you don't have that same resistance. I would be /very/ surprised if someone could get a good seal without using both hands, and even with both hands, it's a toss up.
Snorkel is the only way that I know of to do it one handed.
Unless you get the patient back within several minutes though, there's probably going to be some degree of brain damage, so honestly if you're boat diving the best thing is to get them back on the boat as soon as possible, this means temporarily saying screw the CPR and hauling them up onto deck where definitive CPR can be given, and hopefully if one's on board, an AED can be administered which is what's going to bring them back; the CPR just keeps the body alive but without that electric shock to kickstart the heart, patient's screwed regardless.

...
Using mouth to snorkel a victim can be transported as fast as they would be without rescue breathing.
 
A little extra CO2 may, in fact, be a good thing. I'd be glad to demonstrate it to you, any time. Short of that, see Al Pierce's book: Scuba Lifesaving.

Well, your offer is tempting because any excuse to go to Hawaii with my SCUBA gear gets my vote, but I just can't afford it...so I'll buy the book instead. :p However, I noticed the review said that the book is rather old and the procedures are not safe with modern day SCUBA...thoughts?
 
As a medic I have to say, don't bother trying to do the rescue breaths in water get the person out as fast as you can, CPR is much more important. And you can only do that on dry land or boat, so personally I don't carry a pocket rescue mask on me in my dive gear, nor do I have one in my ALS bag, but I do carry an ambu bag in my ALS bag.
 
The book is old, it was a ground braking piece of work. I can not think to anything, offhand, that is unsafe with modern scuba, however there are (if I recall) some examples in the book that illustrate the way many of us used to dive (and some us - NEMROD, I mean you) still do.

In addition, some things like mouth to snorkel will not work with the poor excuses that they pass off for snorkels today ... you need a simple "J," no valves, no auto-clear, no 'nuthin'.
 
As a medic I have to say, don't bother trying to do the rescue breaths in water get the person out as fast as you can, CPR is much more important. And you can only do that on dry land or boat, so personally I don't carry a pocket rescue mask on me in my dive gear, nor do I have one in my ALS bag, but I do carry an ambu bag in my ALS bag.

Huh, yeah I forgot about that fact...guess that O2, regardless of delivery method, is pretty worthless if it's not being circulated throughout the body and especially to the brain and heart. Well, guess that's why you're the medic and I'm the EMT. Someone needs to shove a foot up National Registry's ass for not requiring physiology as part of the EMT-B cirriculum. :14:

The book is old, it was a ground braking piece of work. I can not think to anything, offhand, that is unsafe with modern scuba, however there are (if I recall) some examples in the book that illustrate the way many of us used to dive (and some us - NEMROD, I mean you) still do.

In addition, some things like mouth to snorkel will not work with the poor excuses that they pass off for snorkels today ... you need a simple "J," no valves, no auto-clear, no 'nuthin'.

Ah....so if anyone's using snorkels like they make nowadays, which most do, that technique won't work in the first place. Well, so much for that. I may take a look at it, but if the information is outdated, not sure how applicable it may be to modern day rescue scenarios.
 
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