Very confused on BP/W - requesting help for the newbie

[gcbryan]

Sloeber, I think you are getting some good advice here. What RR is referring to I think is that a BP/W can be configured to any way you want. So you can add a quick disconnect harness, weight pockets and you can put D rings anywhere you want them.

However since it was designed as a system it's generally best IMO to take it as it was designed to be. If that doesn't work then modify it.

You are getting away from a padded BC with too many bells and whistles so what most posters are trying to tell you is to not take a good system (BP/W) and mess it up by turning it back into a padded BC with bells and whistles

You really don't need padding. Your exposure suit is padding enough. Even without that it's still not needed. Padding just makes you use more weight to sink that padding

A quick disconnect isn't needed either if you take the time to set up the continuous webbing harness correctly. Again, the best approach I found when I was making the switch as you are was to use it as it was designed and see how that works before changing things.

The BP/W is very configurable for the individual user. It takes a few "fittings" before you get it right. After you do you realize you don't need padding or quick disconnects.

 

[DevonDiver]

Here we go again... An experienced diver/OP asks for a BP&W with specifics. They state what they want it for and the specifics seem to make sense for the application.
So why do so many of the so called experts feel the need to second guess the OP's requirements and try to sway the OP towards a HOG rig.

Because divers have different perceptions and experiences, and wish to share them. They consider that offering their best advice, rather than simply providing information that directly answers a question (that the OP could easily get from a Google search) is more beneficial.

Plus.... I don't think anyone on this thread... or from my recollection, anyone ever on this board, ever professed to be a "so called expert". It seems you have some kind of insecure axe to grind here??

When are these self appointed experts going to learn that their choice is not necessarily the best choice for others.

Again... There is no need to attack or belittle fellow forum members because they express a different opinion to yours.. or because they wish to discuss something on a discussion forum.

There is no need for insults and no need to provoke arguements. So please cease the name calling.


Back to the OP.....

Sloeber, many people will recommend a Hog (hogarthian) harness because they are the cheapest option and are actually prefered by most BP&W divers. There is a distinct logic to getting your initial set-up with a hog harness and seeing how you get along with it. If it doesn't fit your needs, then you can easily upgrade to the significantly more expensive comfort/deluxe style harnesses at a later date.

I personally view the quick-release comfort/deluxe style harnesses as a 'comforter' for new BP&W users... who get used to these designs from using a jacket BCD. It's familiar, so that is what they opt for. A 'more is best' mentality.

However, a BP&W harness does not fit or function like a jacket harness. A 'less is more' mentality. The harness is not worn tightly...and the crotch strap does most of the work underwater to keep it very secure and stable. Leaving aside any debates about minimalism, streamlining and entanglements; the main issue for the OP is cost - or more accurately the opportunity to make an efficient purchase.

I instinctively bought a 'comfort' harness when I first purchased a BP&W. It was an annoyance during my tech courses. The advice I was given (by a real expert...Mark Powell) was that I would be better in a Hog harness. I changed the harness following that course and it made a dramatic improvement. My brand new, dived twice, quick-release comfort deluxe jacket BCD wannabie harness was consigned to under my stairs..and eventually was sold on Ebay for a huge loss. I WISH I had been given that prudent advice before making a purchase that was based on my assumptions and prior experience as a jacket BCD diver!!

Yeah, it is a fair point that having QRs on your harness can help you demonstrate BCD remove and replace to open water students... but it can be done without it (I know..I've trained hundreds of divers in my BP&W with hog harness).

The OP may have different priorities... but for me, I won't spend money and sacrifice the optimisim of my equipment, just to make a single instructional demonstration easier.

Again... just IMHO....and just sharing my experiences for the OP's benefit... and I am not claiming to be a self-annointed expert.

 

[knowone]

FIY bp/w 35lb lift for single and doubles, inc Air II, adj shoulder strap, $100.

If you squint or take gear underwater blurring may diminish.

Also comes in black.

Price is an approximation, this gear Not for sale.

I have considered embroidering blue eSSSSS on the harness
however I may just do it on the cheap obtain a template and
spray the eSSSS on on the shed floor or out the back instead.


I think with further investigation, and considering the abuses
your body has suffered, adjustable harness, shoulder buckles
would be a very important look see into thing to look into too.

 

[CardShark]

[*]

Lightweight (for travel)

get an Aluminum backplate ( that has camband slots ! )

• a few D rings (not 18)

I would suggest you keep the shoulder D-rings, as they will prove handy.

• Weight integrated

adding that as a teaching aid would be great. Otherwise, please consider weighting yourself ( & wetsuit ) separately from the weighting of your gear. That may ( or may not ) lead you to a different gear choice than having weight integrated into the BP/W.

• Padding between my back and backplate

Probably not needed, but...maybe deliberately choose a manufacturer of BP's that also offers a matching pad...

• Quick-release harness for ease of getting out of gear in water

As I have limited motion on one side, I have added a QR to my left side. That way, I can swing out of one side, freeing up a ton of room on the left. That also means I have a continuous harness on the right, which eliminates the possibility of a QR failure on the right side. Also... Golem offers stainless QR's for BP's which are very secure.

• In the next couple months I'm taking the step to become a DM then OWSI.

You may want to ask the person(s) / shop you are planning to train under what their preferences are.

• an air bladder for single or double tanks, etc.,

For now, just get a singles wing & cam bands.

Hope this helps.....

 

[Banyan]

Yeah, it is a fair point that having QRs on your harness can help you demonstrate BCD remove and replace to open water students... but it can be done without it (I know..I've trained hundreds of divers in my BP&W with hog harness).

The OP may have different priorities... but for me, I won't spend money and sacrifice the optimisim of my equipment, just to make a single instructional demonstration easier.

DD, I don't think this is off-topic since the OP is planning to progress to OWSI, but I would imagine that some OW students would be confused by the differences between the gear they are wearing (assuming that they have rental jacket BCDs) and your BP/W. I've got a personal interest in this since I'm a new DM candidate who recently ordered his first BP/W and I've just recalled that whole requirement about my demonstration skills. :depressed: Any other teaching challenges the OP and myself should be watching out for?

Also, cdoesn't padding add up to two pounds of buoyancy to a BCD, which you have to compensate for with lead, or is that only true for jackets?

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

Deep Sea Supply is worth looking into. https://www.deepseasupply.com/index.php?page=home
They have a reputation for excellent customer service and will spend enough time on the phone to make sure you get the right rig for you.

 

[Banyan]

Hey all,
I've been reading some threads on SB about BP/W and their advantages, but a lot of it is confusing for me. Is there somewhere that details the building of a BP/W, but does so in the "For Dummy's" terminology? Basically I load up the Leisure Pro website and look at the BP/W section and I see how modular they are... I don't want to limit myself by getting the wrong thing.

Hi Sloeber,

I should first say that I'm still waiting for my own BP/W to arrive in the mail, but I've been considering buying one for about two years so can probably offer a brief overview, without getting into the ideological wars that get fought over these issues every time they are brought up. I'm gonna go through plate, wing, and harness components in the most ridiculously simple way I can, since it will make the more detailed suggestions other are offering more comprehensible. I will also probably misrepresent something and offend someone's ideological stance about their gear:

Plate: A rigid flat thing with holes for webbing. Straps go through it to hold the tank(s) and you to the plate. Usually comes in either aluminum or steel, though DSS offers a Kydex version that is less than a pound. One of the major benefits of a BP/W rig is its buoyancy characteristics. A jacket BC may have an inherent buoyancy of 2 pounds, while an aluminum plate may weigh 2 pounds, so right there you've removed four pounds of lead from your pockets. Many if not most divers swear that moving weight from pockets to the tank/plate makes horizontal orientation easier. For those diving in cold waters, the ability to use a stainless steel plate and drop 6-10 pounds from pockets is a godsend.

Wing: Most jacket BCDs provide enough lift to handle almost any situation in the coldest waters. Divers normally have two different rigs for single and doubles diving, so you really only have to think about the size of the singles wing, and there are plenty of options. If the wing is too big for the tank, it may "taco" when you're horizontal in the water, i.e. the sides of the wing will flip up and put the air above the level of the dump valves. So you actually have to figure out how much weight you carry on yourself (e.g. weightbelt), on your BC and in total. The goal (of at least a significant number of divers) is to have just enough wing lift to (1) float your head above the water before the dive, (2) make up for loss of buoyancy as your wetsuit compresses at depth so you can get back to the surface without swimming up and (3) keep your rig at the surface in case you have to get out of it and let it float on its own without the benefit of your wetsuit buoyancy. There are huge threads on Scubaboard about calculating required lift. Most temperate water recreational single tank divers seem to need 30 pounds or a little less, though lucky me in the tropics has ordered a 20 pound wing.

Harness: The traditional harness for BP/W is the Hogarthian set up (aka "Hog"). This is a single piece of webbing that forms the "shoulder straps" and "belt" that hold you to the plate. People I've talked to say they hardly even feel that they are wearing anything while diving with a BP/W, as opposed to a jacket. There is also another piece of webbing to make the crotch strap, which is used because inflation on the surface will cause it to ride up unless held down somehow, though some divers apparently don't use them. The Hogarthian setup comes out of the Doing It Right (DIR) movement, which began with cave divers partly trying to create a perfectly minimalist rig - thereby reducing the number of failure points and standardizing setups so in an emergency one DIR diver could operate another DIR diver's setup without having to figure out what thingamajig was attached where. You'll find DIR proponents and those who aren't questioning each other's intelligence all over SB. Assuming that you're not one of the true believers, you are free to modify your rig nearly infinitely.

 

[Sloeber]

Sloeber, I think you are getting some good advice here. What RR is referring to I think is that a BP/W can be configured to any way you want. So you can add a quick disconnect harness, weight pockets and you can put D rings anywhere you want them.

However since it was designed as a system it's generally best IMO to take it as it was designed to be. If that doesn't work then modify it.

You are getting away from a padded BC with too many bells and whistles so what most posters are trying to tell you is to not take a good system (BP/W) and mess it up by turning it back into a padded BC with bells and whistles

Ok, I see. That makes sense.

You really don't need padding. Your exposure suit is padding enough. Even without that it's still not needed. Padding just makes you use more weight to sink that padding

I don't wear neoprene down to about 78 degrees 3 dives daily, but that might change as I age or start doing it for a living. Nevertheless it is good to know the padding adds weight.

A quick disconnect isn't needed either if you take the time to set up the continuous webbing harness correctly. Again, the best approach I found when I was making the switch as you are was to use it as it was designed and see how that works before changing things.

Good advice, thanks.

The harness is not worn tightly...and the crotch strap does most of the work underwater to keep it very secure and stable.

Interesting. I was not aware of this. I have always tighten my jacket BC as tight as it can go and felt comfortable doing it. There will be adjustment period for me if it isn't worn tightly.

Yeah, it is a fair point that having QRs on your harness can help you demonstrate BCD remove and replace to open water students... but it can be done without it (I know..I've trained hundreds of divers in my BP&W with hog harness).

Fair enough, but part of the concern was also for my limited-range shoulder (the student demonstraton is just a bonus). When I shattered my collar bone I also tore out the shoulder AC joint and a few other things.... My left shoulder doesn't like me anymore, so I just thought a QR on that one side would be huge. I guess my question is can I start with the basic HOG harness, and if I so choose add a single QR on my left side?

As I have limited motion on one side, I have added a QR to my left side. That way, I can swing out of one side, freeing up a ton of room on the left. That also means I have a continuous harness on the right, which eliminates the possibility of a QR failure on the right side. Also... Golem offers stainless QR's for BP's which are very secure.

Exactly. Nice. So do you sport the traditional HOG harness that has been discussed in this thread? Or a different brand? Thanks for the heads up on the Golem QR, I'll look it up.

DD, I don't think this is off-topic since the OP is planning to progress to OWSI, but I would imagine that some OW students would be confused by the differences between the gear they are wearing (assuming that they have rental jacket BCDs) and your BP/W. I've got a personal interest in this since I'm a new DM candidate who recently ordered his first BP/W and I've just recalled that whole requirement about my demonstration skills. Any other teaching challenges the OP and myself should be watching out for?

Good points. Thanks.

Also, doesn't padding add up to two pounds of buoyancy to a BCD, which you have to compensate for with lead, or is that only true for jackets?

Another good point.

A jacket BC may have an inherent buoyancy of 2 pounds, while an aluminum plate may weigh 2 pounds, so right there you've removed four pounds of lead from your pockets. Many if not most divers swear that moving weight from pockets to the tank/plate makes horizontal orientation easier. For those diving in cold waters, the ability to use a stainless steel plate and drop 6-10 pounds from pockets is a godsend.

Given my herniated disc I'm aiming to keep as much lead off me as possible. A SS plate and no padding may very well be my best option even though neither were part of my original considerations.

Also, Banyan, thank you for the simple, yet very informative explanations. They have assisted greatly in my understanding of some of the lingo on this and other threads.

 

[sea_ledford]

Regarding the standard hog harness vs a deluxe harness- the deluxe has padding, quick releases and somewhat built in D-rings (depending on the specific harness), so you will be going back to what you are tying to move away from. As others have said a hog harness is a single continuous piece of webbing that you can add d-rings to where ever you want, or not, as you see fit.

You can easly add a quick release buckle to a hog harness by cutting it, and threading on a QR. I've also seen people that don't cut the harness, but put the male and female ends several inches apart, so when they are connected the harness is teh correct size, but when they are disconnected thay make the harness 6 or so inches longer in teh arm. A picture would be worth a thousand words in this case... The golem QRs are great, but are expensive and a bit overkill for a single tank IMO. Just go to a camping store and buy a 2" heavy duty plastic one for $2 and a couple triglides to go with it. I know people will scream about failure points with a plastic buckle, but they do make them for mountaineering backpacks which hold more than the 40 lbs of gear for a single tank setup.

I would install the QR on the part of the strap that runs between your waist and where the chest d-ring traditionally goes (right over your ribs), the deluxe harnesses tend to put them right over your collarbone and I've found them uncomfortable or more difficult to fit.

Chris

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Adjustabilityof the harness: I know a couple of people that have physical liitations. One uses the Halcyon cynch system, and the other does the same thing as CardShark with a fastex quick release on one side of the harness.

Travel: You could buy an aluminum plate, however I travel with my steel plate frequently. My BP/W takes up less room than my old jacket BC, and is only about 1-2 lbs more in weight. With the SS plate, I wear little or no weight in warmer water.

The other nice feature that Halcyon has is that they make an STA that accepts a 5lb weight in the channel, which is perfect for dry suit cold water diving, and means less weight on my waist. DSS also makes a similar feature, but they have plates that bolt onto the plate. With my thickest undergarments, I am usually only wearing abut 10 lbs of weight around the waist, which goes in the weight pockets attached to the harness.