What Responsibilities do Dive Operation Have?

[ScubaFreak]

Unfortunately, diving is not like driving a car, and running out of air is usually more serious than running out of gas.

I'm well aware of the differences erich, I was merely re-enforcing the point of being responsible for your self, and not relying on somebody else.

And it is not always easy to guage just what is the optimum turn-around point at an unknown site or dive.

Sure it is, when you have a half tank left, turn around.

 

[Hank49]

When working as a divemaster I checked our customers on top and under water. I knew nothing of their abilities until after a few dives so it made sense to watch them closely, especially diving on deep walls that bottom out at 60 meters plus. It would have been a nightmare for me to lose a diver because he/she wasn't able to watch out for themselves. Just losing sight of a diver for a few seconds sent a rush through me. On one hand we complain about the level of dive training and on the other we act all hard core and expect divers to be able to fend for themselves on the third dive after OW. there are a lot of incompetent divers coming out of the mills but as professionals we must be prepared to deal with them with a positive attitude.

 

[Deano2]

Knowing when to call a dive is always unpleasant but rarely all that difficult: when it doubt, abort. Easier said than done, I agree, but there you have it.

Ask questions and don't try to impress the charter with your skill. Rather, impress upon him the fact that you have concerns, aren't certain about your abilities and/or the conditions and might need extra help. If you don't know the site, the charter and the other divers, be extra cautious. If you think you might be getting a glad-handed back-slapping from a charter that is just looking to take your money, ask him about his insurance - that will almost always get him to stop talking for a minute and look closely at you.

As to gaining experience, the progression doesn't necessarily have to be slow but it does need to be steady and coherent. As japan-diver indicated, advancing in skill requires more diving than you can pack into a few dives on a weeklong trip. If time or money or interest conspire to keep you from diving more than occasionally, so be it. There is nothing wrong with being a once-a-year resort diver; if that's what you are, no amount of wishful thinking is going to make you an advanced diver.

The first step towards moving out of guppy status is to get trained through Rescue. IMNSHO, until you're Rescue certified, any class you take should be a Rescue prerequisite. No nitrox, no deep air, no night diving, no wreck diving, no nothing that doesn't lead directly to Rescue. You have to be able to take care of yourself and your buddy in an emergency. Depending upon your local conditions, a drysuit class might be an exception to this rule.

Past Rescue, training can be had from a variety of sources other than classes, although classes are usually the best place. Sometimes an alternate source could be a charter DM. It's imperative that this option not be assumed to be available and that arrangements are made with both the operator and the DM long before you reach the dock to have whatever special services you need provided. Plan on hiring your own private DM (and paying accordingly for both his/her time and expenses) and call it an introduction to local diving program, if need be. Another good source of training is a dive club. You can often find instructors, dive masters or just highly qualified buddies to share experiences and knowledge with - both on the surface and beneath.

The first step to expanding your limits is to know what your current ones are. Aside from making you a safer diver, knowing your limits allows you to create a realistic plan to develop the skills and gain the experience to become the diver you want to be.

Thanks for the kick-(beep) advise and pointing us in the right direction. I'll be sure to ask questions and get some one-on-one training. Cert-card smert-cards, who cares, I want to be a good diver. Steven and JapanDiver, cheers to you both for taking the time to answer.

 

[erichK]

When working as a divemaster I checked our customers on top and under water. I knew nothing of their abilities until after a few dives so it made sense to watch them closely, especially diving on deep walls that bottom out at 60 meters plus. It would have been a nightmare for me to lose a diver because he/she wasn't able to watch out for themselves. Just losing sight of a diver for a few seconds sent a rush through me. On one hand we complain about the level of dive training and on the other we act all hard core and expect divers to be able to fend for themselves on the third dive after OW. there are a lot of incompetent divers coming out of the mills but as professionals we must be prepared to deal with them with a positive attitude.

Good for you, and well put! This is certainly what I would expect of myself, if I were a divemaster. Haven't been, but have been a swim instructor and pool supervisor and led lots of outdoor activities. Even activities like wilderness canoing and hiking can be dangerous when people are out of shape and/or insufficiently trained. Tends to happen especially to those whose locations, jobs, income, etc make it difficult to participate regularly.

There are certainly aspects of dive training that deserve closer regulation. For one thing, why does my First Aid certification have to be renewed every three years, while my first dive cert (1968!) is technically still good. For another, how can a certification obtained in calm, clear tropical resort waters possibly be recognized for current diving in murky cold water. Finally, if one should train at least to the rescue diver level before really considering oneself "trained', then what does that say about basic or even "advanced" OW certification. (BTW, as I've detailed in other places, that 1968 basic OW training, and my 1981 and 2002 ACUC OW recerts were tougher than the PADI "Advanced" I completed more recently.)

There are also aspects of the dive industry that should be regulated. In the case of an accompanied dive or guided dive, is it reasonable to expect a single divemaster to conduct a dives of more than eight, ten, or at most twelve people? Shouldn't there be clear minimum standards for any dive briefing? These could be facilitated by fairly simple checklists similar to those used in airline safety briefings, with instructions for panic and "bailout" situations being an integral part. A frustrating reality of our sport is the failure of most governments at all levels failure to set and monitor standards and to provide even minimal safety equipment and entry ands exit conveniences for the same divers they are eager to collect taxes and tourist fees from. They, too, seem to be afraid of "assuming responsibility..."

 

[SDAnderson]

You're very quick to propose solutions that mandate and regulate the behavior and performance of the rest of us, a seemingly hypocritical position for someone so ardently determined to avoid responsibility for your own behavior and performance.

If you're out of shape or insufficiently trained or don't have the time or the money or...make the appropriate adjustments. These adjustments might very well require you to refrain from diving, but there you have it. Your unwillingness to accept your limitations and weaknesses doesn't mean that your responsibility for your own safety should automatically devolve to someone else. If you need help, ask for it and be willing to pay for it. If sufficient help isn't available, stay out of the water. Don't make your problem my problem.

As to regulation of the sport, be very cautious about this. If you were in charge of the rules, dive masters might be forced to accept greater responsibility for their charges but if I were in charge of the rules there might be a requirement that divers who can't demonstrate a high level of proficiency not be allowed in the water without hiring their own personal escort - or might end up beached until they can prove their ability to adequately fend for themselves. Your political solution can easily backfire on you and certainly drives up the cost of diving for everyone.

Ultimately, your argument comes down to this: you aren't a good diver but like diving and want someone, anyone, everyone, to watch over you. It angers you that the rest of us aren't automatically willing or able to do so and you reach for the nanny solution: government should force the rest of us to behave the way you want us to. To repeat: phooey. The real world doesn't work that way. I'd like to suggest that, in the future, you redirect some of the time and energy you've put into this thread, get out your wallet and hire your own personal guide/dive master so you can have a safe dive and so the rest of us can go on about our business, unmolested and uninvolved.

We have not passed that subtle line between childhood and adulthood until... we have stopped saying "It got lost," and say "I lost it."

- Sydney J. Harris​

Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.

- C. S. Lewis​

​

Good for you, and well put! This is certainly what I would expect of myself, if I were a divemaster. Haven't been, but have been a swim instructor and pool supervisor and led lots of outdoor activities. Even activities like wilderness canoing and hiking can be dangerous when people are out of shape and/or insufficiently trained. Tends to happen especially to those whose locations, jobs, income, etc make it difficult to participate regularly.

There are certainly aspects of dive training that deserve closer regulation. For one thing, why does my First Aid certification have to be renewed every three years, while my first dive cert (1968!) is technically still good. For another, how can a certification obtained in calm, clear tropical resort waters possibly be recognized for current diving in murky cold water. Finally, if one should train at least to the rescue diver level before really considering oneself "trained', then what does that say about basic or even "advanced" OW certification. (BTW, as I've detailed in other places, that 1968 basic OW training, and my 1981 and 2002 ACUC OW recerts were tougher than the PADI "Advanced" I completed more recently.)

There are also aspects of the dive industry that should be regulated. In the case of an accompanied dive or guided dive, is it reasonable to expect a single divemaster to conduct a dives of more than eight, ten, or at most twelve people? Shouldn't there be clear minimum standards for any dive briefing? These could be facilitated by fairly simple checklists similar to those used in airline safety briefings, with instructions for panic and "bailout" situations being an integral part. A frustrating reality of our sport is the failure of most governments at all levels failure to set and monitor standards and to provide even minimal safety equipment and entry ands exit conveniences for the same divers they are eager to collect taxes and tourist fees from. They, too, seem to be afraid of "assuming responsibility..."

 

[getwet2]

I have to agree with reefraff, keep the government out of it. I don't feel like having to pay the new "diving tax" they will most surely come up with to administer the new program they invent, it would probably just end up in their pockets anyway. Think about this....Lets just say that they did come up with some new "set standards" how would you yourself go about meeting these new standards or even maintaining them, seeing as you do not live where it is convenient to dive all the time.

Now that you have thought about it, GO AND DO IT ON YOUR OWN, don't rely on the government to force you to do it. If you are that lazy that you won't do it unless you are forced to, then maybe diving is not the sport for you or maybe you should stick to the shallow calm water dives that are no deeper then 30'. Divers also know that they should be in reasonably good health/shape to participate in this sport but I'm sure most don't give it a second thought before they suit up and jump in. Should this be a condition the government sets also, pass their set physical or don't dive? I don't think so. If they are going to regulate diving why stop here, why not every other sport you can think of, just think of the money they could generate for their pockets, sorry I ment to say coffiers.

As for clear minimums for dive briefings, if the people don't listen what difference will it make. What next, we all have to learn the language of the country we are visiting just incase they don't speak english very well. What's going to be the minimum standards for that? Next time you are on an airplane take a good look around and see just how many people are paying attention to the "BAIL OUT" procedures as they are being demonstrated. How many people who actually do pay attention to them will even remember them when the S**T does hit the fan?

If the "dive guide" is "guiding" and everyone has a buddy and everyone sticks with that buddy, what difference does it make how many divers are following the leader. The important thing is that you stick with your buddy and everyone gets back on the boat when you are finished diving. I also think that you have admitted that some people do not know when to say they are in over their heads. Most of the time they will not tell the DM about their concerns much less their buddy. I don't know what people are afraid of, they would rather gamble and have a near miss then admit before hand that they are uncomfortable. We are not all experts and nobody expects us to be.

If you get to the dive site and the weather conditions are not what you like, don't dive. If there is a possibility of strong currents and you are not comfortable diving with them, don't dive. If you are a little uncomfortable but feel you would like to try the dive to gain the experience discuss it with the DM before you jump in, you will probably discover that they will pay a little more attention to you, suggest that you buddy up with them or maybe that you should just sit this one out.

 

[String]

For another, how can a certification obtained in calm, clear tropical resort waters possibly be recognized for current diving in murky cold water.

The detail is in the small print at least in the case here and i assume other agencies are the same. The certificate is valid here for conditions "equal or similar to those encountered in training". Any worsening conditions mean that extra training or practice would be needed to adapt to local conditions. In theory that would mean someone learning sea in the great barrier reef, t-shirt diving to 12m wouldnt be technically expected to be adept at 3c water, 3m swells and currents with a dry suit. Thats conditions beyond their training.
True this may not be enforced but i think most certifications do allow for it in the print.

Finally, if one should train at least to the rescue diver level before really considering oneself "trained', then what does that say about basic or even "advanced" OW certification.

Its been discussed in many places elsewhere and the motives for it

There are also aspects of the dive industry that should be regulated. In the case of an accompanied dive or guided dive, is it reasonable to expect a single divemaster to conduct a dives of more than eight, ten, or at most twelve people?

Surely that depends on what the DM is expected to do. Assuming all the divers are qualified and its within their level (see above) then surely all he's doing is guiding. He shouldnt be expected to have to nanny divers, merely swim around the dive site pointing things out. That doesnt really matter if its 3,4 or 15 divers. If they ARENT qualified for the dive then surely it becomes an instructional dive so should cost extra and possibly have a person directly supervised. That in turn would mean the people ARENT qualified for the dive.

Shouldn't there be clear minimum standards for any dive briefing?

Thats incredibly hard to define. Yes you'd expect a good site briefing but common sense again is needed. If something isnt covered in a briefing, ask questions. If he doesnt mentioned anything about currents, ask him. If he doesnt mentioned surfacing procedures, ask him and so on. A site briefing is nice but i dont think should be a legal requirement or all sorts of trouble could erupt with an incident being blamed no matter how unconnected with the DM failing to state would should have been immediately obvious to anyone with a brain cell. In short, id say no. ITs too hard to define and common sense of divers should be used to decide what else they need to know and whether to do it or not (Obviously assumes qualified divers suited for the dive again)

Just about anything government regulated becomes a nightmare of red tape and paperwork and grossly inefficient. You really want them as far away as possible from anything remotely interesting.

 

[MikeFerrara]

There are standards for briefings. All DM's are taught what should should be covered in a briefing. All that's left is to tape record them for the purpose of quality control. Well maybe we need to have clients take a written test to verify their understanding.

 

[getwet2]

Well maybe we need to have clients take a written test to verify their understanding.

Could we make it multiple choice?

 

[montyb]

I myself certainly have to agree with the comments that reefraff has made throughout this thread. When I sign up for a dive with a dive boat I expect them to get me there and make sure I'm on the boat for the trip back. Other than that I am already aware of what the dive is and in most cases (with a little research or help from the divers on scubaboard) what to expect, all the way up to worse case scenerios. I'f I didn't think I could handle it I wouldn't even get on the boat. I have been on dives in Hawaii where it has been said the dive masters do everything for you. But it is still your responsibility to monitor your life support equipment. Air, etc. I also dive off boats from San Diego to Ventura. These boats are quite diff. from the ones in Hawaii but it is my choice to dive from them. The owners or Captains or Divemasters are not forcing me to go with them. And most of the time I go to these boats solo. If while speaking to other solo divers, if I don't feel confident in their skills or abilities I dive alone and strap on my pony. I take care of myself and don't want to babysit anyone.

I'm rambling so I better quit but just want to emphasize the fact that reefraff said it best.

montyb